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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 1413 of 2073 (876923)
05-30-2020 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1409 by dad
05-30-2020 12:45 PM


Re: bogus claim on the age of the earth being in the bible
dad writes:
You are not in a position to say what is evidence or not, only to deny and reject evidences you don't like.
As I sometimes explain to people, evidence is evident - i.e. everybody can agree what the evidence is. If you have a dead body with a hole in it, it is clear to everybody that the body is dead and there is a hole in it. Any interpretation of the cause of death or the origin of the hole is not evidence.
Similarly, the Bible is evidence that somebody wrote something down. The interpretation that it is true is not evidence.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1409 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 12:45 PM dad has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1414 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 12:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1415 of 2073 (876928)
05-30-2020 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1414 by dad
05-30-2020 12:57 PM


Re: bogus claim on the age of the earth being in the bible
dad writes:
Claims of ratios being caused by the present nature, or tree rings etc are faith based.
How so? You could do the same experiments yourself and get the same results, regardless of your rteligious beliefs.
ABE:
dad writes:
I notice you mention the bible. Funny how when people diss Scripture....
I don't diss scripture. I have more respect for the Bible than most people do.
If you want to discuss the Bible, we have threads for that.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1414 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 12:57 PM dad has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1416 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 1:04 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1417 of 2073 (876931)
05-30-2020 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1416 by dad
05-30-2020 1:04 PM


Re: bogus claim on the age of the earth being in the bible
dad writes:
you assume trees grew in this nature (therefore slowly as today and that the rings represent yearly patterns) and you assume that isotope ratios were formed in this nature exclusively.
And we assume that the earth has always been a sphere. What's wrong with that?
If you want to challenge the assumptions, you can certainly do that. But you can't just speculate that nature coulda/woulda/shoulda been different in the past just because it gives you the result you want. You have to challenge the assumptions with substance, not just wishes.
dad writes:
Then you silence opposing beliefs
Who's silencing your beliefs?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1416 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 1:04 PM dad has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1419 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-30-2020 3:13 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1424 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 5:04 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1430 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2020 6:40 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1428 of 2073 (876963)
05-31-2020 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1424 by dad
05-30-2020 5:04 PM


Re: bogus claim on the age of the earth being in the bible
dad writes:
Just wait and see who silences opposing beliefs here.
Nobody is silencing your beliefs. When/if you return from your suspension you will be free to express your opinions/beliefs but you do have to do it within the rules.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1424 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 5:04 PM dad has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1429 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-31-2020 6:37 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1440 of 2073 (877007)
06-01-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1436 by dad
06-01-2020 3:31 AM


Re: bogus claim on the age of the earth being in the bible
dad writes:
NOW trees grow in a seasonal/yearly pattern. Now all we need is this present nature in the past so we could also say the same for rings in the far past!
You have it backwards. The sensible approach is to assume that there is no change unless there is evidence of a change. You're the one who has to back up the idea of a change.
And by the way, the Bible doesn't say anything about a change in nature. It does not back up your idea about multiple tree rings.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1436 by dad, posted 06-01-2020 3:31 AM dad has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1449 of 2073 (877192)
06-07-2020 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1444 by Phat
06-07-2020 8:19 AM


Re: Comments From A Tribal Missionary To The "Other"
Phat writes:
The fact is that I sense God's presence when I pray.
Nope, that's not a fact. At best it's an impression.
Phat writes:
The reality is that God exists and seeks to know us.
Nope, that's not reality. It's more like wishful thinking.
Phat writes:
The evidence is that More gets done at a soup kitchen full of prayer warriors than simply a bunch of liberals talking football, women, and politics.
Show us that evidence.
Phat writes:
The truth is that Jesus Christ is alive.
Nope, that isn't the truth. It's just a mantra.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1444 by Phat, posted 06-07-2020 8:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1470 of 2073 (877607)
06-19-2020 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1466 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 9:05 AM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Kleinman writes:
... evolution isn't taught properly in schools.
Why don't you tell us how it "should" be taught?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1466 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 9:05 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1472 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 10:41 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1474 of 2073 (877615)
06-19-2020 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1472 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 10:41 AM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Kleinman writes:
Just follow the "Do you really understand the mathematics of evolution? topic in the "Biological Evolution" forum.
You haven't even made it clear whether you accept evolution or not. In this thread, try to be coherent. Tell us what the schools are doing wrong and what they need to do to put it right.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1472 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 10:41 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1475 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 11:15 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1476 of 2073 (877630)
06-19-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1475 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 11:15 AM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Kleinman writes:
What I don't accept is this mathematically irrational notion that reptiles can evolve into birds and fish can evolve into mammals.
So you don't accept evolution as it is understood by scientists. And you think mathematics trumps reality.
Kleinman writes:
A good starting point to put this right is to require biology students to master introductory probability theory in their dumbbell math courses so that they might have some understanding of stochastic processes such as DNA evolution.
There are people on this forum who understand introductory probability theory but they don't seem to be convinced by your version of what evolution really, really, really is. So that doesn't seem to be a solution.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1475 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 11:15 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1478 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 12:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1479 of 2073 (877636)
06-19-2020 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1478 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 12:08 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Kleinman writes:
Just because people claim that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals don't make them scientists.
You have it backwards. What makes them scientists is doing science. And the science they do indicates that species do evolve into other species.
I suppose next you're going to roll out the old creationist claim that it isn't "real science".
Kleinman writes:
And mathematics is the language of science.
Exactly. It's what we use to describe the science. It doesn't define reality.
Kleinman writes:
Where are all your experts in probability theory that can explain how reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals?
If they disagreed with Taq, they'd say so.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1478 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 12:08 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1482 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 12:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 1485 of 2073 (877659)
06-19-2020 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1482 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 12:38 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Kleinman writes:
If they are real scientists, why haven't they given the correct mathematical explanation for the Kishony and Lenski evolution experiments?
So you know better than every scientist? That smells cranky.
Kleinman writes:
That's right! But if you do the mathematical modeling correctly, you can predict the behavior of a physical system.
Only if the model is based on accurate observations of reality. The mathematics is always secondary.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1482 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 12:38 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1486 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 5:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1498 of 2073 (877698)
06-20-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1486 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 5:10 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Kleinman writes:
If you think there is some scientist out there who claims my explanation is incorrect, have them explain why.
Why should they waste their time on a crank? Publish a whole flock of papers; convince some real scientists that you're right. That's how science works.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1486 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 5:10 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1517 of 2073 (877825)
06-22-2020 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1516 by Kleinman
06-22-2020 10:42 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
And you will also understand why reptiles cannot evolve into birds and fish cannot evolve into mammals.
So where DO birds come from? Where DO mammals come from?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1516 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 10:42 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1518 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 11:43 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1527 of 2073 (877848)
06-22-2020 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1518 by Kleinman
06-22-2020 11:43 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
There are far, far too many genetic differences and far, far too few replications to account for these differences. That is what science can tell you.
But that isn't what science DOES tell us. If you're going to oppose the actual science, you have to propose an alternative.
So where DO birds come from? And where DO mammals come from?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1518 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 11:43 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1594 of 2073 (878029)
06-24-2020 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1588 by Kleinman
06-24-2020 7:25 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
Don't be bashful, just say that mammals evolve into mammals.
So, evolution is only possible within the mammal "kind".
Kleinman writes:
But don't start with dogs evolve into cats. That would be mathematically irrational.
It would also be classic creationism. Your slip is showing.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1588 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 7:25 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1596 by Kleinman, posted 06-24-2020 10:29 PM ringo has replied

  
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