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Author | Topic: When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But I will add fuel to this debate by declaring that I believe that God never directly created evil. He created freewilled Angels, one of whom chose to embrace the opportunity. We cant charge God for being evil simply for allowing the possibility of evil to exist IF that angelic being had a free choice to reject it and become exclusive(under His authority) versus inclusive (free to accept both good and evil and live with the decision. But of course if one believes that God is not good but is simply complete, one might fall under this teaching.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
OK, so what modifiers will we have to use to make our God character (Who actually exists as GOD) not so evil? Are you telling me that He cannot know what *we* actually will do until; we actually do it? My argument is that He chooses to limit His knowledge to be in lockstep with our human development over time, for the lifespan of each one of us uniquely. Comments?
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Thats rather rude. I could just as easily say that you dont understand reality but why throw gasoline around at the library?
And you both have yet to present an alternative description of a God who would not be evil. I know ringo will just say to throw it all away, follow the message, and be a good socialist, but then again he does not see the evidence that humanity needs God. Yet. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes:
Stop and think. We all know that I believe (though cannot prove) that Jesus existed eternally as Gods character and thus metaphorically with the Father whereas the contrarian position is that these characters are limited to the book itself. Which to me is a rather weak belief, but you guys do love physical evidence! You've just never experienced a spiritual epiphany and mock those who claim to have. Phat writes:
But that would be false. I could just as easily say that you dont understand reality....And it isn't rude to call an idea stupid. The god you market is so obviously made up, you spit on the Bible, you worship apologists without a moment of thought about what they're saying.... AND you're afraid to defend anything you say. "Stupid" is one of the politest things I can think of to say about your theology. For the sake of argument, lets say that any description of God that I make up is no different from any that you make up. Whether or not either of our Gods is real (and thus transcendent beyond the little black book) remains to be seen. Oh and by the way...for the record, no. I could never prove nor provide evidence for a spiritual epiphany. Which is irrelevant in this context. jar writes: You've painted God into a corner. You claim that He cannot be all-knowing if at some point in the future humans may end up in hell and He knew about it. Which is in my opinion a loaded argument. ringo will claim that God dug a hole in the yard as an attractive nuisance and that some kids fell in. Thus God is liable. I would argue that the only way that humans could ever truly have free will is through being offered a choice between Gods authority and the lie of autonomy provided by the sneaky snake. Whom you also likely would defend. You really should consider working for the A.C.L.U.
Yes, if there is a hell and God is the creator or all that is, seen and unseen then if the God is omniscient it is evil.So you can have hell, a God that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and even if not good, at least not evil as long as it is also not omniscient. Might I ask what attributes you would assign to God in order for Him not to be evil? Whats that you say? Allowing everybody into heaven regardless of their transformation? I figured as much. That inclusive belief is pathetic and a lie from satan.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: You error in logic. God does not condemn some of His creation to hell. The creation itself chooses which path to take. NGP. Not Gods Problem.
Also it's not I that paint that God into a corner, it is YOU who created the God that created all that is, seen and unseen and is omniscient but also condemns some of his creation to hell. Your God, your creation, your corner! NMP!jar writes: And again you dodge the question. The bible itself says in Isaiah 45:7 that God creates evil as well as good, but there is an apologetic explanation. You tell me if it sounds plausible or not:
It's your God Phat, the one you've created and market. Not my problem. It's you that wants to worship and market evil.quote: I dont know why you get so upset at apologists for "making up" answers to scriptural questions. After all, if the books were edited, compiled, and redacted by humans, what difference does it make if a human apologist suggests a deeper meaning for a particular scripture than something YOU would conclude? The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Lets discuss this concept a bit deeper, shall we? The Evil was in creating. There is no way around it Phat. First a yes/no question. Does evil exist? Has it always existed? Where did it originate from?The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Well apparently everything did....but the issue is whether or not God created evil or merely the possibility of evil which was then actualized by an independent agent.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar, who claims to be a believer writes: And I suppose you claim that God is also a human construct. Quite frankly your "God" is an abstract creation of the human mind. She may well not be a piece of shit God, but she is no more real than Lady Liberty, Lady Wisdom or the Statue Of Liberty. And your ego-centric rational thinking will be dealt with by the "living Christ in His timing and by and through His methods. Feel free to oppose Him, but you will learn. We are talking about God here. Not *my* God and not the "God apologists market." You all can call me crazy, delusional, fantasy-based or even arrogant, white privileged, exclusive, or phatshit crazy. Evil is a human creation, an evolved social skill. It is also totally irrelevant to the discussion and just another attempt by you to avoid dealing with the issue. There are several parts to the issue. Is God the creator of all that is, seen and unseen? Is God omniscient? Is anyone or anything sent to hell? If all of those are true then that God is just a piece of shit. To keep that God from being a piece of shit at least one of those parts must be false. Now let me review the posts and see who is next. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: I disagree. Creating the possibility of evil was only done so that Angelic Beings would not be zombies. Perhaps it was foreknown that Lucifer and 1/3 of these beings would choose rebellion but that foreknowledge is in and of itself not evil. It was necessary for the term freewill to even have any meaning.
If god created what you guys call 'the seen and unseen', he also created this hypothetical independent agent. And creating the possibility of evil is the same as creating evil. btw, this is called making shit up. Call it what you will. What difference does it make if I unapologetic-ally "make stuff up" now or whether the authors of the original texts "made stuff up" then?
Isa 45:7 KJV writes: I already addressed this argument back in Message 394. Look at the original Hebrew. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Which may or may not be true. You cant simply take two believers and claim that they both experienced the same things. The only way that you might argue your point is to claim that you were sold a bill of goods and culturally brainwashed while a believer and that you later "saw the light" of rationality, evidence-based thinking and reason and became truly Born Again and now are representing Logic, Reason, Reality and evidence based thinking. Which I clearly see. You are a worthy contrarian.
I have told you many times that I have experienced what you have.ringo writes: I never said it was. It was crucial to Lucifer even being allowed to rebel and break away from Gods authority (to a limited degree for a season)
1. Why is "free will" so all-fired important to you?ringo writes: It is surrendering to the fact that God is good. Not "complete" as the corrupted teachings from the East taught. Not Yin and Yang. 2. How the hell is bowing to authority "free will"? 1)God is sovereign. God is good. Bow willfully now or forcefully later. 2) Jesus Christ is ultimate truth, ultimate love and ultimate wisdom. He is worthy to be praised. In Him is life. 3) Humans never needed religion. Religion was created by us for manipulation and control of other humans and to push our own agendas. 4) Even though God is sovereign, He has given you full right to question, deny, laugh at and redefine who He is. All that your free will wont do is allow you to escape what you claim is ignorance and create a brave new secular world which itself will succeed. Because sadly it won't.
ringo writes: I do not believe in the snake. Never have and never will.
The snake told the truth.You can not escape that by throwing out the book. If you believe in the snake, you have to accept what the book says about him. ringo writes:
Romans 12:1 clearly says that there is. Are you also now throwing out the book?
How many times do I have to point out that there is no transformation? Rom 12:1-13 NIV writes: 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will. 3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. 9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. ringo writes: Jesus is not a human socialist. You're preaching an ugly, disgusting, evil, exclusive lie. You should be ashamed of connecting your lies to Jesus.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Here we go off on a rabbit trail. I will allow it, for this topic is about the possibility of the End Times and I think it is important to realize that as the war of ideologies, world views, humanism vs apologetic Christianity, minority cultures vs white privilege, and finally exclusivity vs inclusive thinking heats up, these issues will define the human responses that we see on a daily basis. Never mind the belief that we are in a spiritual war. I'll throw that one out for now. We can always pick it back up later.
jar writes: Perhaps we need to first address what hell is and why hell exists (within our argued construct) We next need to point out that you think that God is a human creation and I think that He existed long before humans were even around. So before I address your questions philosophically, consider allowing mine into the public record. What YOU fail to consider is the reality of what your claim shows. There are several parts to the issue. Is God the creator of all that is, seen and unseen? Is God omniscient? Is anyone or anything sent to hell? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : spellingThe only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
How can unconditional obedience involve free will? Get your mythos straight. 2/3 of the angels chose NOT to rebel. That is free will in action.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So there is no reason to think that they were not slaves? Surely your logic puzzles us.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Show YOUR logic. Granted for the sake of this discussion we are talking hypotheticals and philosophy here. All that I have to go on is either what an apologist thought or what I myself think.Given that God exists and is essentially the Creator of all seen and unseen and given that He is the God of scripture Who is Jesus Father (in a Triune Concept) and given that God had angels.... Why is it as logical to believe that Angels are zombies over the idea that Angels had and have Free Will? Why would God need to create zombies? And the apologetic argument is as good of one as any...that Lucifer chose autonomy over authority. That is not an action a zombie would make. It is equally plausible that 2/3 of the Angels chose Authority. They happened to like existing as servants for their Boss. Now unless you want to pull Stan Lee in here(we would need another resurrection, however ) and ask for his opinion, I see nothing wrong with the popular apologetic model...which by the way most Christians dont even go so far as to know. Now you are perfectly free to throw it all away, but then it becomes your turn to replace my hypothetical and not by saying we simply live, do our best for each other and die...turning to worm food and ceasing to exist. That hypothetical is less likely. Humans know and have seen too much to be atheistic materialists as a species. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The first mistake you make (and its huge) is to equate obedience to God with slavery. When the Prince of Peace is your Boss, you are not a slave but a son.
You seem to think freedom is being able to do whatever you want. Which is fine if you believe the lie that the universe is simply some vast frontier awaiting discovery. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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