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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 428 of 507 (878040)
06-25-2020 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 426 by GDR
06-24-2020 6:52 PM


Re: All religions are of human origin.
GDR writes:
In the case of Jesus we have the accounts of eyewitnesses to an actual physical event, around which they reformed their worldview.
No you don't. You have the accounts of anonymous authors, copying from each other, written decades after the alleged event about things that they themselves did not witness.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by GDR, posted 06-24-2020 6:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Phat, posted 06-25-2020 4:32 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 431 by GDR, posted 06-25-2020 12:34 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 433 of 507 (878073)
06-25-2020 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by GDR
06-25-2020 12:34 PM


Re: All religions are of human origin.
GDR writes:
Matthew is the least conclusive but was probably written by Matthew the tax collector.
Mark was written by a disciple of Peter most likely John Mark.
Luke was written by a physician who traveled with Paul including spending time in Jerusalem with the Apostles
John was written by a disciple of Jesus either John son of Zebedee but more likely John the Elder as written about by Papias.
Like I said, they're anonymous. 'Most likely' this and that, means that they are anonymous, unsigned, unattributed. Also copied and written decades after the alleged events by people who were not witness to those events. Let's be honest eh?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by GDR, posted 06-25-2020 12:34 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 454 of 507 (878222)
06-27-2020 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Trump won
06-27-2020 11:02 AM


SoC writes:
Limbo is not abolished.
It was effectively canned in 2007 in "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die without Being Baptized." Which concluded that
quote:
Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision.
It then waffles on about not actually knowing anything at all - ie it's Catholics making stuff up - but the effect was to kill Limbo dead in the developed world.
You were catechized?
I bloody hope not. I was, however baptised and confirmed if that's any help.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Trump won, posted 06-27-2020 11:02 AM Trump won has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 455 of 507 (878224)
06-27-2020 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by Trump won
06-27-2020 11:09 AM


SoC writes:
Everything is wrong here. Francis granted an exemption from celibacy to Amazonian priests because of difficulty having priests there.
He also allowed married Anglican in the UK to become RC priests. Because, guess what, the UK is desperately short of priests after the revolting global child abuse scandals.
So yeh, priests are no longer required to be celibate, just a matter of convenience.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Trump won, posted 06-27-2020 11:09 AM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by Trump won, posted 06-27-2020 4:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 458 of 507 (878234)
06-27-2020 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Trump won
06-27-2020 4:48 PM


SoC writes:
Limbo is not abolished.
Not only is it abolished the Vatican tells us it actually never existed. It was always just a 'hypothesis'. You have to laugh.
quote:
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION
THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED
The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness, even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in Revelation.
The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Trump won, posted 06-27-2020 4:48 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Trump won, posted 06-27-2020 8:34 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 464 of 507 (878253)
06-28-2020 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by Trump won
06-27-2020 8:34 PM


SoC writes:
that's not limbo. limbo is the old word for purgatory, which still exists in catholic dogma.
No it's not. Limbo is the place unbaptised babies were supposed go if they died. Neither heaven nor hell but they could never get to heaven.
Purgatory is supposed to be a time-limited, mini-hell used for atoning for 'venial sins'. A process of 'purification by torture.' Everybody goes there for a bit unless you are lucky enough to be hit by a bus exiting the confessional muttering your Hail Mary's.
Mortal sins could not be atoned for - that's what hell is for - everlasting torture.
You couldn't make it up - except those crazy, psychopathic Catholics did.
quote:
The Limbo of Infants (Latin limbus infantium or limbus puerorum) is the hypothetical permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed actual sins, but not having been freed from original sin. Recent Catholic theological speculation tends to stress the hope, although not the certainty, that these infants may attain heaven instead of the state of Limbo.
Limbo - Wikipedia
quote:
Purgatory (Latin: purgatorium, via Anglo-Norman and Old French)[1] is, according to the belief of some Christians (mostly Catholics), an intermediate state after physical death for expiatory purification. [...] The Catholic Church holds that "all who die in God's grace and friendship but still imperfectly purified" undergo the process of purification which the Church calls purgatory, "so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven". It bases its teaching also on the practice of praying for the dead, in use within the Church ever since the Church began, and mentioned in the deuterocanonical book 2 Macc 12:46.[5]
Purgatory - Wikipedia
Of course the Catholic Church got extremely rich by selling indulgences to the wealthy so that they could get out of purgatory early; a sort of get out of jail card.
purgatory is brought up probably once a month at mass. most go to purgatory, even Catholics, where we have to pay for our sins, until we're allowed into heaven. purgatory is a place of torture and yes it is still believed in by the catholic faithful and affirmed by the pope.
Yes, it's quite an evil idea isn't it? So much for the 'merciful Lord'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Trump won, posted 06-27-2020 8:34 PM Trump won has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 465 of 507 (878254)
06-28-2020 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by Trump won
06-27-2020 8:44 PM


SoC writes:
why is it not surprising that a cradle catholic has no idea what his belief system is (op)?
Yes, why do you do that? The Catholic teachings on Limbo, Purgatory and Hell have been there for centuries, how come you're still confused?
the pope in special circumstances has allowed priests to serve without being celibate.
Therefore it's no longer a requirement that catholic priests are celibate is it?
celibacy is central to the catholic faith in its position on priesthood. however, the church has always allowed men who were married to become priests. in instances where there are not enough priests there must be ways to have mass and carry out the sacraments. celibacy is important to francis and pope benedict. our priests are married to the church.
Correct, celibacy is now a matter of convenience. It wasn't so central after all was it? Unless, of course, you were one of the thousands of children raped by those 'celibates'.
certain traditions do change.
They sure do. You seem to be saying that things are changing whilst denying that anything is changing. It's a tough line to walk isn't it?
Christ's position on divorce is clear.
Haha.
At one time the church's policy on divorce was very clear, it meant you couldn't do it for fear of excommunication. "what god has joined together let no man put asunder".
Only the pope could annul a marriage and only in very special circumstances. He could do it because he was not 'no man', he was god's representative on earth. This meant that divorce was a practical impossibility.
The pope even refused to allow king Henry VIII of England to remarry and as a result the Church of England and Anglicanism was created by him just so that he could. Bad move pope - didn't think it through. Still, back then the Catholic church was a political and power institution more than a religion.
But divorce, like contraception - once an absolute no-no and a mortal sin worthy of everlasting damnation - modern life saw whole swathes of Catholics abandoning the religion because of it, the once totally intransigent divorce 'rules' had to be changed.
So divorce is now devolved to your local priest.
quote:
The Vatican is making it much easier for Catholics to annul their marriages following a push by Pope Francis for reformation of a process long criticised for being complicated, costly and out of reach for many.
Rules unveiled on Tuesday speed up the annulment process, with a fast-track procedure now available, and allow for appeals to be judged by a local church official rather than the Vatican in what represents a significant decentralisation of power away from Rome.
Pope reforms Catholic church’s marriage annulment process | Pope Francis | The Guardian
So a process once so impossible that a king couldn't do it, is now so trivial that anybody can.
Again, a matter of pragmatism and convenience
the church does evolve as Christ speaks to us.
The church evolves because if it didn't change its mind on matters it once thought sacrosanct, it would lose all its followers in the educated world.
nothing claimed in this thread by tangle is legitimate.
And yet I can point to chapter and verse. Odd that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Trump won, posted 06-27-2020 8:44 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by Trump won, posted 06-28-2020 10:45 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 466 of 507 (878255)
06-28-2020 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by Trump won
06-28-2020 12:59 AM


SoC writes:
Fake news
Ah, the cry of the modern day dissembler ie liar. Actually what it is is media management. A little history
According to the 1904 catechism published by Pope St Pius X in 1904, children who died without baptism go to limbo where they do not enjoy God but don’t suffer either. Because they have original sin, they do not deserve paradise, nor hell or purgatory. So Limbo. But
quote:
John Paul II was deeply troubled by limbo and had it dropped from the church's 1992 catechism, a summary of its beliefs.
He also asked the International Theological Commission, which advises the Vatican, to take up the issue. When he was still a cardinal, the present pope, Benedict, said he was in favour of dropping the concept
The day before the commission announced its findings the Vatican briefed the world's media, saying that Limbo was effectively abolished. So you will find a consistent story in every newspaper around the globe with this sort of headline.
quote:
Pope Benedict XVI will tomorrow announce he is scrapping the centuries old Roman Catholic concept of limbo.
I've already quoted from the actual findings of the commission that the Vatican PR machine briefed on so we now know that despite your protestations the RCC has now abolished limbo - because, it was always, according to them, only a 'theory' anyway.
quote:
This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium, even if that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council.
Doublespeak at its very best.
I don't know who to believe, a pope, the Vatican, the Vatican's Commission and the world's media or you. Just joking, yes I do, it's not you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Trump won, posted 06-28-2020 12:59 AM Trump won has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 468 of 507 (878263)
06-28-2020 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by Trump won
06-28-2020 10:45 AM


SoC writes:
the church is the living body of Christ. to suggest that it can't "change" as some kind of gotcha, is ludicrous.
So not only can the Catholic Church change its mind, so can you! Apparently you now accept that everything I said had changed has been changed. Celibacy, Limbo, divorce and the rest.
Well done.
you have no respect for the faith system you were raised in.
You're on a roll now. And that was decades before Catholic priests raped children across the globe and bishops and the Vatican systematically covered it up.
Catholic Church sexual abuse cases - Wikipedia
you have no idea what roman Catholicism is.
Apparently I do. Equally apparently you do not. But you know, if you could actually support anything you say about this stuff instead of just saying it, you might stand a tiny chance of convincing somebody of something. But it doesn't look like you're going to.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Trump won, posted 06-28-2020 10:45 AM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 06-28-2020 12:03 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 475 by Trump won, posted 06-28-2020 5:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 471 of 507 (878268)
06-28-2020 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Phat
06-28-2020 12:03 PM


Re: Tangling with Religion Is A Waste Of Time
Phat writes:
Humans can and do change their minds. Whats your point?
Remember that the title of the thread is that Catholics are making it up? So that's case proven, they've admitted that they made up whole tranches of their belief system. Why would anyone believe that it wasn't all made up?
Humans are part of either the Body of Christ or the body of the Antichrist by default. At the current time, many (including you) dont know which one they belong to but there is no third option.
Anyone can make shit up, now it's you.
You can laugh it all off or ignore it all you want but the fact is you will either belong to one body or the other one.
Hahaha.
Try and do your best every day. Dont worry about religion.
But of course, why would anyone do anything else?
My only advice? Trust Jesus. Dont attempt to put Him out of your mind as if he is a fairy tale.
Don't be bloody rediculous.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 06-28-2020 12:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 06-28-2020 3:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 474 of 507 (878282)
06-28-2020 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Phat
06-28-2020 3:50 PM


Re: Tangling with Religion Is A Waste Of Time
Phat writes:
Are you afraid to trust the Spirit?
Why are you asking me that? There is no friggin' 'Spirit'. I don't even know what that means. You've been asked over and over 'what does that even mean?' You've never given a sane answer.
Are you afraid for yourself that you would be going nuts or are you afraid of what others would think of you?
You're away in your own crazy bubble - what you believe I know is total garbage, pure fantasy and delusion. Why on earth would I want to have anything to do with that?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 06-28-2020 3:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 476 of 507 (878289)
06-28-2020 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Trump won
06-28-2020 5:31 PM


SoC writes:
descend into brutal madness. apparently the church is nothing to u but a juicy scandal.
I rejected the RCC as total garbage decades before the facts of the rape and cover up of thousands of children became general knowledge. "Juicy scandal" doesn't exactly do it justice does it?
the laypeople that attend like myself deserve more respect than a tone deaf buffoon and his utterances.
My case is against the Catholic Church, not you. But as you bring it up, so far you haven't produced a single scrap of anything to support whatever argument you think you have, so I can't say I am finding you deserving of much respect. Yet.
i'm on my way to Mass right now. maybe you should check it out. if I read and believed everything written about the pontiff and the church like you do, I would stay away from it.
I think that would be an excellent plan, you might start to learn a little about your religion's real policies.
however I am not a lemming.
Right, just make sure that you stand, kneel, chant and grovel when Father tells you to. And if you've got any kids, don't let them out of your sight. You'll be telling me next that the bread and wine are REALLY changed into the body and blood of Christ. Really. Litererally.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Trump won, posted 06-28-2020 5:31 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Trump won, posted 06-28-2020 10:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 482 of 507 (878335)
06-29-2020 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 478 by Trump won
06-28-2020 10:19 PM


SoC writes:
no respect.
All I know about you is what you've said here. So far what you've said has not earned any respect at all and has removed any that you had by default before you said anything.
If you could present any actual case for your mad assertions you might help yourself but it's clear that you're not going to, presumably because you can't. So no, no respect.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by Trump won, posted 06-28-2020 10:19 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by Trump won, posted 06-29-2020 12:13 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 484 of 507 (878363)
06-29-2020 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by Trump won
06-29-2020 12:13 PM


One day we'll get some believer in here that has a brain and is basically sane. But it is pretty clear that they never have both and usually have neither.
It's really weird when they think that ignorance is something to brag about.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by Trump won, posted 06-29-2020 12:13 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by Trump won, posted 06-29-2020 2:26 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 06-29-2020 4:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 486 of 507 (878379)
06-29-2020 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by Trump won
06-29-2020 2:26 PM


Please put into your own words what it is you think is important in that link and how it might support whatever argument you have. Quote from it where it helps.
We don't post bare links here.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by Trump won, posted 06-29-2020 2:26 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by Trump won, posted 06-29-2020 3:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
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