Catholics are making it up.

Phat writes: So you mean to say that all of the scholars who have diligently (not whimsically and fancifully) studied the statements from many of the ancient Saints, Apostles, Popes, and Clergy and who have written sometimes brilliant observations on philosophies learned, improved, and passed down, some from the very utterings of an Apostle of Christ or Christ Himself...are wrong??!

No Phat, I say they are they are made up. Each and every utterance or writing is the product of a human mind. And I acknowledge that the Genesis 2&3 story does not show Death coming into the world through any act of man but rather that Death was the default condition created by God.

Phat writes: Surely there are at least a minority of true believers in those churches who would blow the whistle and tell the others to stop.

Yet the evidence shows that the followers will simply believe the most outlandish things even when the evidence is clearly visible.

Phat writes: Salvation is a gift---we cannot earn it. And if God chose to give it to those who never worked for it, this would NOT be a copout.

Yet I have never said anyone earns salvation but rather by failure to do what Jesus says we should do the character Jesus in the Bible says we will be damned.

It's not what I say Phat, it is what the Bible says Jesus said. The passage from Romans that so many love to use as a comfort blanket actually says what is actually written. It has no evidence or Biblical support or even reasoning or argument; simply a black assertion and Genesis 2&3 contradicts what is written in Romans.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Edited by jar, : more applin spallin

Phat writes: How do we know or even have evidence disproving the idea that much of religious thought is formed through a communion of human minds with a Divinity?

We look at the evidence; what is written; and compare that to what we see that is known to be solely the product of humans. We ask for evidence that some communion does or even could exist between a human mind and some divinity. The, based on the evidence we reach a conclusion.

You and I have gone over the evidence many times but you simply deny the evidence exists. Look at what was actually written in the Bible stories about Saul's conversion or about the Great Commission; look at the varying and often incompatible and mutually exclusive description of God in the stories.

Phat writes: Why is communion with GOD a silly fantasy? Can it not be a possibility? GOD is certainly not by definition so limited.

Humans are so limited. How can you tell you are communing with XYZ? Again, look at the evidence. Look at the history of supposed human interaction with God(s) or god(s) but consider all of the evidence and not just those pieces parts you happen to like. Jim Jones was in communion with God. So was Muhammad. So was Hitler and Hirohito was not just in communion but actually was Divine.

Tangle writes: If you want evidence of this you only have to look at the invention of the Protestant church in England, created by Henry VIII so he could divorce and re-marry.

Actually the split was mainly caused by the conflict of two calendars; the biological clock driving the issue of an heir and the communication/political clock determined by transportation of the period. There was little doubt that Henry would be able to get the annulment but not quickly enough to assure that the bun already in the oven would not be born a bastard.

Phat writes: All this shows me is suggested validation of a spiritual battle. There is One Holy Spirit(GOD, Creator Of All Seen & Unseen) and then One human link--Jesus Christ. You can trot out all of the other cultural gods and goddesses that you like. I maintain that they are counterfeits, just as the "spirit" in Jim Jones was counterfeit.

Jim Jones knew he was communion with the same God with which you claim to commune and based on the same evidence.

Phat writes: The evidence shows me that it is not all made up.

What evidence Phat?

Phat writes: And the reason that I reject your supposed evidence is that it concludes that GOD, if GOD exists, is not found in the Bible and is in fact a product of human imagination. Not acceptable. And I still don't see how you believe anything with teeth. All you believe in is logic, reason, and evidence.

LOL

Not acceptable? That is not a valid argument Phat. What does the evidence show?

Phat writes: You will again ask me what that even means, which proves you don't understand or accept it. I could ask 500 random people in most churches and they would know what I was talking about.

I don't doubt that for a second; many people have never learned how to think and it's easy to just accept utter nonsense if it makes you feel good.

But even if they know what you were talking about would they be able to explain what it means? Should people be satisfied with just knowing what you are talking about without any understanding of what it even means?

Phat writes: If we were to accept your "evidence" like you did, we would become believers like you are.

The question is whether or not the evidence actually exists? If the evidence actually exists then it really is what exists. All through recorded history humans have been in communion with deities, and in some cases deities far more real than the deity you market; deities that are actually alive and observable and testable and independently verifiable.

Hirohito actually did have a house where he lived and walked and talked and ate. Seventy eight million people knew that Hirohito was divine. You could ask seventy-eight million people and they would know he was divine.

I think that is more than 500.

Do you see how silly such claims really are? Could any of those nodding heads explain what it means?

Phat writes: I feel as if such communion can exist. What would stop it?

Yes, I know that you believe that. Now please explain how you can know your communion is any different than what Jim Jones experienced or as testable as the communion between seventy-eight million Japanese citizens and their deity?

Phat writes: It could exist, even if we made up the interaction, God could still be listening.

That is not communion Phat; communion is a two way interaction. You might as well say that Big Brother could still be listening and in fact it's far more likely that No Such Agency really is listening.

Phat writes: Should we "throw away" God as *we* understand Him? If so, how could we call ourselves believers?

You could call yourself a believer just as I call myself a believer. You should really understand what you and I have discussed many times.

If GOD really exists then whether that GOD is like any of the God(s) or god(s) we humans invent is irrelevant, The GOD that exists if one exists will be what that reality presents. We have absolutely no control over that. What we do have control over is what we actually do; nothing else.

Phat writes: Japan was collectively asked to "throw away" the idea that Hirohito was divine.

And what changed? The biggest change was that Japanese decided that dying for the Divine Emperor was stupid. What changed was that Japan decided that their needs could be better met through commerce, competition and cooperation than through conquest and exploitation.

Phat writes: I can imagine what would happen if Jesus were to appear and tell the Nationalist Christians that He too was just a man and that they too should reject him as divine and reject the idea that they were any better than anybody else.

And we have talked about that before as well since the Bible has Jesus telling worshipers just that over and over and over again.

Remember Luke 4:25-28?

Remember Matthew 25?

Phat writes: What does logic say will happen given the history of human nature and war? The planet clearly will become unsustainable for everyone. Some will have to go.

LOL

Stop and think Phat. What war has killed as many people as the flu?

Phat writes: So if we get involved in wars over diminishing resources as global warming rises, according to experts, to the water level of the statue of liberty's elbow and noting that most great cities are near sea level, what would logic suggest that humans will do...nevermind what they must do. you guys have no faith in God and lots more faith in humanity (without God) than I do.

Where is the evidence of any god ever doing anything?

Is there evidence of humans doing things?

And funny you bring up 2 Peter since you and I have discussed it many times. It is the clear example of the necessity for the Apologist. The clear prophecy made by none other than Jesus that all the following marketeers of the new religion had based their sales pitch on was been shown to be at best failed and utterly false. It was necessary to totally rewrite the story in some attempt to make it fit with reality.

That marketing scheme worked then and still is a money maker.

Let's start by pointing ou that nothing in your post actually addresses the issue I raised in the post to which you replied. But let's tray again.

Phat writes: You never seem to rely on God to do anything so what's the whole point of a belief, anyway?

Once again you are marketing the "What has God done for me" and "What must God do for me" theology.

Phat writes: To do that would invalidate my claim of being a believer since my definition of being a believer involves believing in His influence. It does little good believing in an aloof God.

And again.

Phat writes: It seems your emphasis in your definition of being a believer is that you, along with other humans, belong to this club and that the club motto is to do what the club figurehead once wrote about doing. In this context, it is irrelevant if the club figurehead(Jesus Christ) still lives, ever lived, ever was God, or communes with humanity at all.

Almost. It is a club that says we should do what the central figure of the club says we should do.

But what about the points you did not discuss?

quote:

---

Phat writes: What does logic say will happen given the history of human nature and war? The planet clearly will become unsustainable for everyone. Some will have to go.

LOL

Stop and think Phat. What war has killed as many people as the flu?

Phat writes: So if we get involved in wars over diminishing resources as global warming rises, according to experts, to the water level of the statue of liberty's elbow and noting that most great cities are near sea level, what would logic suggest that humans will do...nevermind what they must do. you guys have no faith in God and lots more faith in humanity (without God) than I do.

Where is the evidence of any god ever doing anything?

Is there evidence of humans doing things?

And funny you bring up 2 Peter since you and I have discussed it many times. It is the clear example of the necessity for the Apologist. The clear prophecy made by none other than Jesus that all the following marketeers of the new religion had based their sales pitch on was been shown to be at best failed and utterly false. It was necessary to totally rewrite the story in some attempt to make it fit with reality.

That marketing scheme worked then and still is a money maker.

---

Phat writes: Belief is still very powerful and there will never be a shortage of charlatans selling easy solutions.

Almost. The correct statement is that there will never be a shortage of people looking for the easy solution. It is not the charlatan that is deplorable but the customers.

Phat writes: To discredit Jesus Christ, to seduce people (through false logic and wisdom) to ultimately deny the truth in the Bible, throw the book away as an authoritative source and to promote inclusive humanism.

Phat, Phat, Phat. Have you absolutely no honor?

Ringo and I as well as almost all others expect the conmen Apologists have told you to NOT throw the book away but to be truthful about what is actually written.

Nor have you ever pointed to any examples of Ringo or I or anyone else except the Apologists using false logic or even claiming any wisdom.

It is the medicine men standing on the tailgate of the medicine wagon selling Snake Oil that make the claims of TRUTH or WISDOM.

We simply ask you to look at reality honestly; what is actually written.

You finally did that with "the Venite" but concluded that what it actually said was not what you wanted to hear and so you rejected it. You created YOUR reality just like you create YOUR God and YOUR Jesus.

Phat writes: I could well say that your argument contains as much snake oil as mine does...and at the end of the day we are both humans attempting to define our belief.

You could say that but of course you could not support that. You and all the Apologists simply take the pieces parts that you like but skim over and never process the whole.

What I ask you to do is honestly look beyond the claims to what is actually written, what is actually the history, what is actually the basics of Christianity.

Sure the sprinkles and cherry on top are attractive and an easy sell, but look beyond.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

And so once again you present no reasoning, no argument, no evidence.

Is there a pattern you can see Phat?

SOC writes: religious ppl are no dummies

While there have been examples of religious people who were not dummies it is very hard to find any such examples within the US and in particular impossible within the Cult of Trump sycophants.

Phat writes: I have heard some fairly strong persuasion from the few people whom I trust and know who beg to differ.

And that is your really big error.

You are still placing SOURCE over content.

You are basing you decision on what you believe about the speaker rather than what is being said.

Your error is in "trust and know".