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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1696 of 2073 (878512)
06-30-2020 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1694 by ringo
06-30-2020 7:16 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
Of course, if you think that the computer he is looking at evolved from fingers is evidence explains why they are called digital computers.
ringo writes:
I think computers were designed using the same scientific principles used to formulate the Theory of Evolution. They're brothers. You can't have one without the other.
You forgot to use the multiplication rule in your development of the theory of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1694 by ringo, posted 06-30-2020 7:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1698 by ringo, posted 06-30-2020 7:51 PM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1697 of 2073 (878513)
06-30-2020 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1695 by Kleinman
06-30-2020 7:45 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
If you're telling the truth you should be able to show us all of the papers you've written about your successful treatments.
Screw the math. Show us the results.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1695 by Kleinman, posted 06-30-2020 7:45 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1699 by Phat, posted 06-30-2020 8:40 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1700 by Kleinman, posted 06-30-2020 9:04 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1698 of 2073 (878514)
06-30-2020 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1696 by Kleinman
06-30-2020 7:47 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
So how did scientists invent the computer if they're as brainless as you claim?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1696 by Kleinman, posted 06-30-2020 7:47 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1701 by Kleinman, posted 06-30-2020 9:06 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1699 of 2073 (878515)
06-30-2020 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1697 by ringo
06-30-2020 7:49 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
I recently read a good article that I wanted to share. There is a Spirituality to Mathematics That Most People Do Not Understand
Several thoughts jumped out at me (Phat) from this article. All thoughts are by the author of the article: Sunil Singh
  • David Krumholtz, the actor who played Charlie Epps in the wonderful series NUMB3RS, is the author of that quote. He said it in the Extras of the Season 1 DVD of the show. With the heaviness of that quote, you would have been right to think it was a seasoned mathematician who uttered these words. No, it was an actor. I can only imagine that the crossing of the chasm from failure and disdain as a teenager, to learning about its beauty, patterns, intricacies, enigmas, and mysteries for a TV show about math, must been life changing.
  • This month will mark the 100th anniversary of the death of one of the most brilliant mathematicians ever. Srinivasa Ramanujan.
    Singh writes:
    Below is an excerpt of an article I found on Quora about him:
    While on his deathbed in 1920, Ramanujan wrote a letter to his mentor, English mathematician GH Hardy outlining several new mathematical functions never before heard of. In his own words While asleep, I had an unusual experience. There was a red screen formed by flowing blood, as it were. I was observing it. Suddenly a hand began to write on the screen. I became all attention. That hand wrote a number of elliptic integrals. They stuck to my mind. As soon as I woke up, I committed them to writing. In the last 90 years, nobody understood what his theorem was, but they knew it was something tremendous. Only in 2010 did they find out that this theorem describes various behaviors of black holes. Ninety years ago, no one was talking about black holes, the term did not even exist, but Ramanujan made a mathematical impression for it sitting on his deathbed and he said ‘my Devi’ gave it to me. When Ramanujan says, ‘Devi gave it to me’, for him Devi is the doorway.
    Singh writes:
    Devi is God. Ramanujan firmly believed that he was only communicating the ideas of God. Judging by how far ahead he was in the field of mathematics, especially with his atypical, rural upbringing, the conclusion of him being a conduit to a higher power cannot be ruled out. Both Krumholtz and Ramanujan overcame initial hardships with the environments for mathematics. While nobody would ever accuse an actor with someone like Ramanujan, they both were grasping for a spiritual terminus for mathematics.
    Thus, "In The Beginning...Math or "In The Beginning...Chemicals" makes less sense to me than "In The Beginning...God."
  • Singh writes:
    Personally, I am not a religious person(more mathematically spiritual), but humanizing the life of Pascal is symbolic of humanizing mathematics in general.
    Food for thought.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1697 by ringo, posted 06-30-2020 7:49 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1702 by Kleinman, posted 06-30-2020 9:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1709 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 10:51 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Kleinman
    Member (Idle past 335 days)
    Posts: 2142
    From: United States
    Joined: 10-06-2016


    Message 1700 of 2073 (878518)
    06-30-2020 9:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 1697 by ringo
    06-30-2020 7:49 PM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    ringo writes:
    If you're telling the truth you should be able to show us all of the papers you've written about your successful treatments.
    Screw the math. Show us the results.
    There are lots of papers out there that show the benefit of combination therapy. You can start with all the papers on hiv, then you find lots of papers that show the benefit of combination herbicides for impairing the evolution of drug-resistant weeds, combination pesticides for impairing the evolution of pesticide-resistant insects,... I'm just giving the correct explanation of why it works and applying the same principles in my medical practice. The results are there if you want to see it but you don't.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1697 by ringo, posted 06-30-2020 7:49 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1708 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 10:47 AM Kleinman has replied

      
    Kleinman
    Member (Idle past 335 days)
    Posts: 2142
    From: United States
    Joined: 10-06-2016


    Message 1701 of 2073 (878519)
    06-30-2020 9:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 1698 by ringo
    06-30-2020 7:51 PM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    ringo writes:
    So how did scientists invent the computer if they're as brainless as you claim?
    There are lots of clever people out there. It is just that the people who push the theory of evolution are not as clever as they think they are.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1698 by ringo, posted 06-30-2020 7:51 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1703 by Straggler, posted 07-01-2020 1:37 AM Kleinman has replied
     Message 1707 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 10:40 AM Kleinman has not replied

      
    Kleinman
    Member (Idle past 335 days)
    Posts: 2142
    From: United States
    Joined: 10-06-2016


    Message 1702 of 2073 (878520)
    06-30-2020 9:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 1699 by Phat
    06-30-2020 8:40 PM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    Phat writes:
    I recently read a good article that I wanted to share. There is a Spirituality to Mathematics That Most People Do Not Understand
    I wouldn't necessarily attribute spirituality to mathematics any more than any other language has spirituality. I think mathematics is the most precise language there is. It is one thing to say there is cause and effect. That is qualitatively understood but not quantitatively defined. When you write down Newton's laws, you put precision in your language. If there is any spirituality in the language, whether it is mathematics or any spoken language, it is in the way you use it. So, when it says in the Bible, "as you sow so shall you reap", the spiritual component may or may not be apparent to the reader. The same can be said about math. If you overload the tires on your car, you might get a flat tire or worse.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1699 by Phat, posted 06-30-2020 8:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 1703 of 2073 (878523)
    07-01-2020 1:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 1701 by Kleinman
    06-30-2020 9:06 PM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    k writes:
    It is just that the people who push the theory of evolution are not as clever as they think they are.
    And you apparently are cleverer than all of them......?
    Reading some of the comments from biologists on other sites you have participated in suggests that the followng is why they aren’t quaking in their boots at the power of your intellect.
    Kleinman’s model of mutation is simple enough. Mutations are independent and have a particular frequency. He models the probability of at least one particular mutation happening in a population of constant size in some number of generations. He doesn’t consider the probability of more than one such mutation occurring, and he doesn’t consider changes in frequency (or absolute number) due to selection, though he thinks he does.
    Your model seems to be fine a few highly specific cases but misapplied to anything more complex.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1701 by Kleinman, posted 06-30-2020 9:06 PM Kleinman has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1705 by Kleinman, posted 07-01-2020 7:14 AM Straggler has not replied

      
    dad
    Member (Idle past 1337 days)
    Posts: 337
    Joined: 05-29-2020


    Message 1704 of 2073 (878526)
    07-01-2020 2:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 1688 by ringo
    06-30-2020 5:29 PM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    And the Popsicle you suck on. So? What does this have to do with origins or creation or evolution or the distant universe or the nature on earth in the past, etc? Did you really think saying the word computer over and over would help your religion?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1688 by ringo, posted 06-30-2020 5:29 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1706 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 10:36 AM dad has replied

      
    Kleinman
    Member (Idle past 335 days)
    Posts: 2142
    From: United States
    Joined: 10-06-2016


    Message 1705 of 2073 (878528)
    07-01-2020 7:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 1703 by Straggler
    07-01-2020 1:37 AM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    Kleinman writes:
    It is just that the people who push the theory of evolution are not as clever as they think they are.
    Straggler writes:
    And you apparently are cleverer than all of them......?
    Reading some of the comments from biologists on other sites you have participated in suggests that the followng is why they aren’t quaking in their boots at the power of your intellect.
    They may not be quaking in their boots but they also aren't giving the correct mathematical explanations of the simplest evolutionary experiments, ie the Kishony and Lenski experiments. Some people are totally content in their ignorance. You know that old saying "ignorance is bliss". Well, it isn't for my patients with drug-resistant infections (or for that matter any kind of infection).
    Straggler writes:
    "Kleinman’s model of mutation is simple enough. Mutations are independent and have a particular frequency. He models the probability of at least one particular mutation happening in a population of constant size in some number of generations. He doesn’t consider the probability of more than one such mutation occurring, and he doesn’t consider changes in frequency (or absolute number) due to selection, though he thinks he does."
    There are multiple errors in that statement, but you can't recognize them. We can start with that all mutations are not all independent. Some mutations are dependent. But you have to be able to recognize under what conditions that occur because it affects how you use the multiplication rule. You have to know when to use the multiplication rule for independent events or for conditional probabilities.
    Then, in my original derivation, I did assume a constant population size over generations simply as a convenience. But if you look at the probability graphs, they are not a function of population size, they are a function of the total number of replications over generations. I could have written the total number of replications as a summation over all generations, or as an exponentially growing population size, or a linearly growing population size, but ultimately the probability of a particular mutation occurring is a function of the total number of replications, not the rate at which the replications are occurring.
    Then, your writer complains that I am not taking into account the probability of more than one such mutation occurring. My first paper on this subject considers the simplest case of DNA evolution when only a single mutation is needed to improve fitness. My second paper addressed the more complex case and extended the concepts of the first paper when more than one mutation must occur to improve fitness. Those two papers also address the differences when the mutations are independent and dependent.
    With regards to fitness, there is a lot of confusion on the part of the members of the fish evolve into mammals clique. If you are going to consider competition between different variants in a population, then you need to consider relative fitness. If you are going to consider adaptation to selection conditions, it is the absolute fitness (the ability to replicate, the total number of replications) that determines the probability of that variant to be able to adapt to the environmental selection condition. The math that I presented includes the total number of replications as a variable.
    If you can't distinguish the difference between competition and adaptation (the two components of Darwinian evolution), you will never understand the mathematics of evolution because they are two entirely different physical phenomena with two entirely different mathematical behaviors and the writer of your quote doesn't understand the difference.
    Straggler writes:
    Your model seems to be fine a few highly specific cases but misapplied to anything more complex.
    Complexity doesn't help your argument. Each additional selection pressure on a population in a given environment introduces another instance of the multiplication rule. That makes the evolutionary trajectory for those selection conditions markedly more difficult for a population to follow. Equation 11 from this paper gives the general equation for the probability of adaptation to any number of selection pressures:
    The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
    If you have trouble understanding that paper, read and understand this paper first:
    The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
    If you want to see how to use the mathematics of adaptation in a competitive environment (the Lenski experiment), read this paper:
    Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment
    And in my next paper, I'm going to show you members of the fish evolve into mammals clique the correct way to formulate the Markov Process DNA evolution models. And how you use it to predict the behavior of the Kishony experiment.
    Edited by Kleinman, : Typo error

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1703 by Straggler, posted 07-01-2020 1:37 AM Straggler has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1706 of 2073 (878537)
    07-01-2020 10:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 1704 by dad
    07-01-2020 2:54 AM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    dad writes:
    What does this have to do with origins or creation or evolution or the distant universe or the nature on earth in the past, etc?
    As I said, science gets results. You keep saying that science knows nothing, yet it managed to produce the computer you say it on. Don't you understand how silly you sound? Do you think you're doing your God a favour by making His followers look like idiots?

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1704 by dad, posted 07-01-2020 2:54 AM dad has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1711 by dad, posted 07-01-2020 1:42 PM ringo has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1707 of 2073 (878538)
    07-01-2020 10:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 1701 by Kleinman
    06-30-2020 9:06 PM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    Kleinman writes:
    It is just that the people who push the theory of evolution are not as clever as they think they are.
    Or the people who denigrate evolution aren't as clever as THEY think they are. Creationism is dead. There are a few crackpots still trying to resurrect it but they don't have a leg to stand on.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1701 by Kleinman, posted 06-30-2020 9:06 PM Kleinman has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1708 of 2073 (878539)
    07-01-2020 10:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 1700 by Kleinman
    06-30-2020 9:04 PM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    Kleinman writes:
    There are lots of papers out there that show the benefit of combination therapy.
    That isn't what I asked you. I asked for YOUR papers. It seems a little odd that you'd be on a fairly obscure forum ranting about evolution when you supposedly could be showing physians how successful your method is compared to theirs.
    Kleinman writes:
    The results are there if you want to see it but you don't.
    The point is: bring the results HERE.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1700 by Kleinman, posted 06-30-2020 9:04 PM Kleinman has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1710 by Kleinman, posted 07-01-2020 1:16 PM ringo has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1709 of 2073 (878540)
    07-01-2020 10:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 1699 by Phat
    06-30-2020 8:40 PM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    Phat writes:
    Food for thought.
    Why don't you post your thoughts instead of giving us a reading assignment?

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1699 by Phat, posted 06-30-2020 8:40 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Kleinman
    Member (Idle past 335 days)
    Posts: 2142
    From: United States
    Joined: 10-06-2016


    Message 1710 of 2073 (878553)
    07-01-2020 1:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 1708 by ringo
    07-01-2020 10:47 AM


    Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
    Kleinman writes:
    There are lots of papers out there that show the benefit of combination therapy.
    ringo writes:
    That isn't what I asked you. I asked for YOUR papers. It seems a little odd that you'd be on a fairly obscure forum ranting about evolution when you supposedly could be showing physians how successful your method is compared to theirs.
    Who is ranting? I'm explaining the physics and mathematics of evolution to the fish evolve into mammals clique and you are the one whining.
    Kleinman writes:
    The results are there if you want to see it but you don't.
    ringo writes:
    The point is: bring the results HERE.
    Do the following searches:
    combination+therapy+hiv => 78,800,000 hits
    combination+antibiotics+resistance => 49,500,000 hits
    combination+herbicides+resistance => 10,300,000 hits
    combination+pesticides+resistance => 15,700,000 hits
    And you want me to write another paper on the clinical use of combination antibiotics and drug-resistance? Why? So you will get 49,500,001 hits when you do that search? I'd rather write the mathematical paper that explains the empirical observation of random mutation and natural selection.
    Try this search:
    mathematics+random+mutation+natural+selection you only get 9,450,000 hits

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1708 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 10:47 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1713 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 3:28 PM Kleinman has replied

      
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