Evidence For Belief

You call it hiding. Perhaps He calls it not conforming to (or bowing to) YOUR standards. Think about it. The supposed Creator of all seen and unseen wont provide you with evidence of His existence. Yet you wont take a leap of faith. I call it a standoff. You claim He hides from you. He may claim you hide from Him.Comments?

I can see your arguments regarding apologetic medicine men. I dont buy them totally, however. I feel that you fail to have ever grasped the concept of being born again. You dismissed it as an apologetic marketing tool. In so doing, you distanced yourself from the Christianity I embrace. Lets talk.

You wont discover God through evidence. You will only find Him (or allow Him to find you) through belief. And your belief must be strong. You always ask how we would know. We wouldn't. Your problem is that you have limited your belief by insisting that you need evidence. Which is a lack of faith.

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You claim that the entire religion should be examined using logic and reason and in light of reality as you understand it. Fine. Thats your stance. What you have done, however, is to declare war on Biblical Christianity. You have used a broad brush to paint all of the faith based believers into an apologetic prison of fantasy. All that you have on your side is works. Being unsure about GOD and not knowing with certainty that Jesus lives. Yet you found a way around all that. You made up your own belief based on what you did examine. You allowed secular Socratic teachers to color your thinking more than people who knew God.

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You now preach that Christianity is about what we do versus what we could have done. That an unknown (and unknowable) Judge will someday open the book, review our lives and our behavior, and send us to either salvation(likely unsaved people and those of other religions mainly) or damnation (the goats, which will be Biblical Christians largely, in your whimsical fantasy)

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You are of course entitled to your belief. I cant prove that the supernatural is real. I cant explain how you can know that Jesus is alive or that the Holy Spirit is more than simply a twinge of conscience...it is the very presence of GOD.

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You scoff at what I say, pointing out that I create the God I want. Meanwhile you use your own wisdom (a false god to be sure) that tells you that all religions are equally true, that truth is relative, that nobody on the planet can ever know GOD until after they die, yada yada yada. And yet you hide behind your defense that you simply present the book as it is written and that it is the apologists who sell a fantasy. I know you too well. You claim I haven't changed in 20 years yet I can and do say the same about you.

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Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

Finally you come out of the closet. You have basically stated that other religions existed before Jesus. I believe that Jesus was in the Beginning. Before the flipping planet even formed. Note the lie you market. That other religions are older than the living Truth. These lies are from the pits of hell, but you likely will defend your view by stating that all religions are made up by man and that Christianity can claim no special status without evidence for its apologetic claims. You always claim that I market SOURCE before CONTENT. You are correct. If you market CONTENT before SOURCE you effectively cut the Creator of all seen and unseen out of the picture and essentially elevate human wisdom as the compiler and definer of CONTENT.I just want the peanut gallery to clearly see the half truths and clever lies that you market. In your defense, you likely dont seek to knowingly deceive people...but the enemy uses you very effectively. I'm starting to see it. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

You have a religious spirit. You worship the symbolism. The rich ornate churches. The beautiful robes and elegant trappings of the presentation. You find solace in the fact that (you claim) Roman Catholicism to be far older (and thus more likely to be true) than you do modern Protestantism, which you likely see as a joke and a lukewarm form of Christianity. Study your History, however. The Book Of Acts is a good place to start.Everybody on the planet knows about God. Some see God as a human construct. A sky daddy. A figment of human imagination. Fewer people have "met" God. Critics say these people are exclusive and thus wrong...claiming that the God they would imagine would be inclusive and loving towards all people whether or not those people believed in Him (believers claim this is only possible through Christ since Christ is Gods physical character.)The argument gets deeper...but lets focus on Acts. Note that though Peter was traditionally the most vocal of the Apostles, he was no more special than any of them. In fact, church history tells us that there were 4 other cities besides Rome where the Apostolic succession happened. Jesus never intended for there to be only 5 leaders, however...and certainly not only one. In 1066, as you know, Rome broke from the other four. All of the 120 gathered in the upper room were of one accord. Man invented positional authority structures. With Jesus, it was more of a relational authority structure. Comments so far?

Its official then. You claim that I am running down the snake oil path. I claim that you are being seduced by snakes. Yes, it will all come out. But I wage war not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers...so I will continue to respect and love everyone here at EvC though I likely wont like those of you who actively oppose my beliefs,behaviors, and posts. You are delusional and yet you claim I am. Stay tuned.

In regards as to whether we are in a spiritual war, I present your statement itself regarding the story of the Virgin Birth. They mocked Jesus before He was crucified. Slapped Him and commanded Him to prophecy. Were we able to ask many of those people why they did it, many would say that a mere man claimed to be God. Jesus Himself would say "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." He likely would say the same to you for talking smack about His parents. We have no doubt that it is. Your content is sound. It is the source(You and your own Ego) that is suspect. The Bible may have been written by humans but it was inspired by God. Folk will check and find that I have no evidence to support this assertion. I suggest that they examine the evidence that you have already ridiculed and laughed at--the Apologists. The evidence is the Source itself. Not merely the CONTENT interpreted by teachers who dont even believe that Jesus actually existed, exists, and always will exist.

Is it my fault you never understood it? And how would i explain it to you? If I quoted the book you would accuse me of being simply another apologist. Personally I think that its a shame you were never able to accept Jesus the way that many of us have. You of course will say its a shame that I never use logic, reason and honesty so as to understand reality. But I pray. And GOD, if GOD exists will help me to understand the reality that He created. If not, I will make as good of worm food as anyone else...yourself included.

Let me just say this much. Evidence for the presence of God through Holy Communion is nott an objective truth. It is not something that everyone can examine. I believe that were salvation simply some formula, everyone would get it who wanted it...and even those who didnt want it or were not willing to change.This is a stumbling block for many of you here. You believe that God should bee inclusive. That Heaven, if Heaven exists should be open for everyone...without any conditions. That God could care less whether or not you kept your own characteristics, idiosyncrasies, dare I say demons and bad habits. But its not like that. The road is narrow. God wants you to lay 100% of your attitudes,idols, alcohols, etc etc...whatever it is that keeps you stuck and a stumbling block to others. He will transform you. Perhaps this is why you never took that step. You thought it absurd, silly, and a marketing tool of apologetic's. I know you. We may never agree on this. ringo feels the same way you do.But you have never given homage to transformation. Take Saul/Paul. You saw no transformation.; You claim the man merely switched sides. You obviously have seen no evidence of transformation in any Christian.Thus in light of this topic, jar sees no evidence that transformation happens.
Phat does.

How would we go about testing? I can say with confidence that some whom I have known personally were observed to have marked changes in behavior. They stopped drinking, for instance...n ever to drink again as of this writing. They had an improved countenance. They were actually happy and behaved as if they were in love...though there was no girl(or boy). It was evident that it was Jesus whom they were in love with. And I observed that their wisdom increased exponentially through this relationship.Granted I dont see this transformation with everybody who accepts the call. It is in fact rare.Perhaps one out of ten. It may last a short time with the others.

In my case, I did agree with humans early on, but I felt empowered and it was as if I saw the world for the first time. If I had been wise at that time, I would have trusted God 100%, and at that time I thought I did, but these pesky apologists, Pastors, wannabe leaders and other who coveted my newfound obedience began to unknowingly (or knowingly) mislead me and feed me dogma.I stand by my assessment, however. I changed 100% at that time in my life, and it had little to do with trying to impress the church people....though it did get that way...I was simply too naive to understand what I had accepted and believed---that God was not only alive (experienced in retrospect through the Holy Spirit) but that I had accepted Jesus and as a result I needed no more drugs, alcohol, or crutches to make me feel better.I observe others having the same change...and I am careful what I teach them. What I most definitely dont do, however, is to tell them that its all a mind trick. Or to throw God away...or realize that human wisdom taught us that Jesus was simply a myth. Why on earth would I want to flow with that "spirit"...that zetgeist? The spirit of the world is at enmity with the Holy Spirit. No apologist needed to confirm that. And it is what keeps you guys in the dark. You simply can't accept that God is real. We are discussing what it means. If you recall, I'm challenging your idea that humans made it all up.Edited by Phat, : spelling

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