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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 220 (845930)
12-23-2018 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Tangle
12-19-2018 1:14 PM


Why So Many?
Trillions of souls
. I don't see why. If all that anyone needs to do is trust that God is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him it only starts with trust. Why would trillions of souls never think about this in some way?
My point is that it is highly unlikely that so many would refuse a simple consideration.
it condemns almost all humanity that's ever lived and will ever live to eternal suffering for no other reason than being born in the wrong time, the wrong place or to the wrong people.
From what I understand, there is nobody who was born in the wrong time or place. How many people do you know who have never heard of Jesus or the concept of forgiveness? Nobody can honestly say they didnt know. What they can say is that they gave it little thought. If they died without getting around to thinking about it, I believe that they would have one more opportunity before eternity. Your problem seems to be in insisting that "the product" is worthless.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 12-19-2018 1:14 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2018 3:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 220 (845931)
12-23-2018 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
12-22-2018 5:38 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
tangle writes:
I consider ICANT to be a charlatan, selling his primitive superstitions to the vulnerable.
From what I see, everything he is saying is free. And why are you worried about people being vulnerable to that and not worried about the thousands of other influences?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2018 5:38 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2018 3:47 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 2:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 220 (845948)
12-23-2018 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
12-23-2018 3:40 AM


Re: Why So Many?
Tangle writes:
Because trillions of people have never even heard of your bloody Christ let alone thought the simple-minded story is true!
So what makes you so angry that the story suggests that lots of people won't make it? Why does that bother you? You almost seem more against what you see as the fake news of religion more than the fake news of today's politics. Having a small church and teaching a flock the story is far less harmful than giving the rich 10% a massive tax break, shunning our global alliances, and spending more than we have. The issue is people. Human nature. And why are you almost beside yourself worried that I am a sycophant tio ICANT? He is just another EvC member, after all. I had my beliefs long before I met him. I started a debate with him to learn his perspective. You seem almost jealous over it, as if I am being prevented from embracing your belief in humanity, thinking, and rationality. So lets discuss that.
It's worse than worthless, your pastor's product is revolting and dangerous.
Show me how it shut down the government. Gave a tax break to the wealthy. Took Britain out of Brexit. Show how it fails to feed people. Clothe them. Give them hope and encouragement. Your secular brave new world has its problems too, and your anger is misdirected, yet noted. You and ringo both have contempt for a smalltown Pastor who is no threat to you. Maybe you misidentify your enemy.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2018 3:40 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 220 (845950)
12-23-2018 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-23-2018 2:06 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
I, for one, have not made up my mind whether ICANT is a smart crook or an honest fool.
I see him as honest. I believe that he has studied the Bible more than most of us, though I will entertain your argument that he does not read it as you do. His claim about you is:
Actually they(you and Tangle) limit Him to the abilities of mankind(...)They believe He is not God as He is a product of the thoughts of mankind, therefore He does not exist other than in the minds of some deluded people like Phat and ICANT.(...)ringo would not recognize evidence if he stumbled over it.
You have to be looking for evidence before you can find it.
He is right in that you yourself have declared the book a primitive superstition and God as fiction. That is your stated position. No wonder you interpret the book different from the apologists. You lump them all together as having an agenda...smart crooks. I can agree that organized religion has its share. But you seem to throw out the Baby(in the manger) with the bathwater.
ringo, referring to ICANT writes:
As for selling his primitive superstitions, not everything is sold for cash. Maybe he's just trying to fuel his monumental ego.
We all have egos. You and Tangle surely don't argue out of a humble need to provide a public service.
Anyone who takes so much time to explain a book that they themselves see as fiction to a large group of people who interpret it differently has not only an ego but an agenda. The only reason I don't accuse you of having a bad spirit in this is that you do advocate following a good message. Funny, though how you declare that if there were a law regarding mandatory giving, I most certainly would obey it...yet you see that same edict in the book and poke holes in belief.
Essentially, the pastor only accuses you of not looking for evidence for God thoroughly nor honestly enough. So is he honest or smart?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 2:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 3:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 220 (845951)
12-23-2018 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-23-2018 2:06 PM


While Im Ranting at ringo
Oh and another thing stuck in my craw. You have the audacity to call the pastor illiterate. I would never say that about anyone at EvC. Here you tell me to hand out spare change without judging the individual, yet you take it upon yourself to judge a man whom you have never met nor even seen. I know what he looks like, as well as his wife and church. he never told me...I found them. I like to know someone before I judge them. You may find me in the library someday as you are typing on that computer. I may or may not identify myself, after observing your character around others in the real world.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 2:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 3:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 105 of 220 (877692)
06-20-2020 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by ICANT
06-20-2020 11:16 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Adding my 2 cents:
jar always argues that the Content is preferable and that the SOURCE is irrelevant.
My argument is that both SOURCE and CONTENT are valuable and indeed necessary.. One cannot have math if nothing existed at one time. (or before time, technically) And AZ, I know you have a rational mind and that you and the critical thinkers here never use God as an initial premise. I wont fault you for that, but I dont want you ridiculing those of us who DO believe that.
And ICANT, I hope that your knee is doing better. I can only imagine what I will feel like if God grants me another 25 years. Im 60 now and I realize that getting old is not for sissies.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 11:16 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 220 (877693)
06-20-2020 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by ICANT
06-20-2020 11:21 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:
The laws of Physics says energy can not be created or destroyed.
I believe that says energy can not be created or destroyed.
Since energy can not be created or destroyed it has to have existed eternally in the past.
Where is my belief wrong.
ringo and I have argued before. (Lots of times! ) He seems to ask "why not in the beginning, math? or...in the beginning chemicals...
I maintain that its Mind Over Matter. Matter coming before Mind is illogical. Mind is always over matter.
And if you dont mind, than perhaps it does not matter!

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 11:21 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 4:59 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 116 of 220 (877737)
06-21-2020 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
06-21-2020 9:35 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
It was a "belief" to Einstein, as you say yourself. It was not supported by science.
Must everything be supported by scieence?
Can God in any way be supported by science?
Its your turn now. Consider that my beliefs may not necessarily be a fantasy.
Consider that God could exist. Now what?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 06-21-2020 9:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 06-21-2020 9:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 121 by ICANT, posted 06-21-2020 3:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 137 of 220 (877926)
06-23-2020 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ICANT
06-23-2020 1:19 PM


Re: AZ
ICANT writes:
I did not ask for evidence. I asked for your opinion of a possible source that could produce the energy that had to exist that began to expand?
They know that you are a Pastor and that I am a believer and they know that we are subtly trying to get them to consider God as a rational idea...but they never will, because humans by and large do not want such a powerful Deity that may interfere with their free-willed freethinking evidence based lifestyle. They likely will argue that they dont believe in our God, but much of their rationale comes from the perceptions of the God found in the Bible which they know about yet have never met. dwise1 is becoming frustrated with Kleinman because Kleinman wont fess up to being a proponent of Intelligent Design but, rather, attempts to convince secular science that his math is superior to their usual knowledge.
I have a question for you though, Pastor. You mentioned before that you were writing a book. Do you see yourself finishing it in the next year?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2020 1:19 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2020 2:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 156 of 220 (878593)
07-02-2020 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by ICANT
06-29-2020 12:37 AM


AZ, Ringo Et Al
I do not believe in gods. I do believe in one God. I do believe in demonic beings. I have met both and I prefer Gods presence.
Me too, Pastor. And so has Isaiah Saldivar. I believe that we are in the time when God is separating the wheat from the chaff. The church in America will shrink, but it will be a good thing. Old dead churches will die unless their Pastors repent and quit teaching modern church programs and gimmicks and get back to the Word of God. That is all that needs to be taught. But lets get back to our conversation in the main topic and let the peanut gallery shell peanuts, shall we?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 06-29-2020 12:37 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2020 11:55 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 157 of 220 (878594)
07-02-2020 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by AZPaul3
07-01-2020 1:39 PM


Re: AZ
But truly, one of the greatest feelings of happy I have ever experienced was when I was sitting in my chair reading my book and my daughter was sprawled out on the floor reading her book when she started softly humming a happy little tune. All the world’s cares melted away and life was never more beautiful. Then I realized the tune was Justin Bieber and the spell broke.
Whose tune would you have preferred she hummed? REM?(Shiny Happy People) or perhaps something from the Beatles?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2020 1:39 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 158 of 220 (878595)
07-02-2020 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by AZPaul3
07-01-2020 8:38 PM


AZ and Ringo
Phat writes:
What does a skeptic like you believe? Is there a Creator of all seen and unseen. Yes or No.
ringo writes:
There's no reason to think there is.
phat writes:
I didn't ask for a reason.
ringo writes:
Then it isn't a reasonable question.
So in other words, you are asking me why it is reasonable to believe that there is a Creator of all seen and unseen. Got it. Moving on...
AZPaul3 writes:
My hope, my speculation, is that as human intellect and technology progress we will uncover the physics that answers the origins questions. And when we find those answers I believe they will be totally surprising, totally unforeseen and will lead to even bigger greater questions we didn’t even know to ask.
Unfortunately, I won’t be around to see this play out and I have grave concerns whether humanity will survive long enough to do this.
You and I agree on the urgency of the times we are in yet simply disagree on the presence of and need for God. Despite you being an atheist(which I wont hold against you) you have a rational mind.
AZPaul3, addressing ICANT writes:
What you miss out on in being a religious nutter is the true wonder, the true beauty, the true freedom of this universe.
You have your universe made for you. Let there be poof! and it is there. Mine is a so much grander a creation. Bigger than any one god and built without majik, without someone’s will or dictate or plan. Just nature, left to her own processes, unplanned, without guide or purpose. You miss out on the wonder, the sheer audacity of what this universe has become on its own accord. The real magic is not in some god’s majik poof but in the boundless wondrous creations of a free and volatile nature.
Bigger than any one god? Who? Nature? The Universe itself? Please elaborate. I would only say that your statement would be true if God was simply limited to the imagination of humans. Which you believe and I don't.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2020 8:38 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 220 (878622)
07-02-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by ICANT
07-02-2020 12:23 PM


ringo of Canuckistan
I think that ringo lives in Saskatchewan. He uses the computer at the library with which to correspond with us. The man is roughly 70, right in between my 60 and your 80+. I told him I might come visit him sometime and wont tell him who I am. He responded by saying he knows what I look like!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.? Francis A. Schaeffer
***
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
? Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2020 12:23 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 164 of 220 (886632)
05-28-2021 2:28 PM


Raphael & Phat discuss the Lords Business
I look forward to my discussion with Raphael.
Any members please feel free to comment here. (as the discussion unwinds)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by PaulK, posted 06-01-2021 2:26 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 170 of 220 (886863)
06-13-2021 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by PaulK
06-13-2021 5:21 AM


Better Sources? We Have Rhema
PaulK writes:
I think it’s telling that you are far more comfortable with misrepresenting the Bible to make it fit with your beliefs than you are with accepting that it says something you don’t like
In my belief, the Bible is best represented at conveying what GOD (The One above all others...Jesus Father...the Creator of all seen and unseen) means for us to know rather than us taking the book as a human creation and simply breaking down what humans of a particular period believed. If GOD does not speak through this book, it is as mundane and transitory as any philosophical book from any religion at any time in history. It no longer speaks as authoritative. ringo can claim that the message has value, though it is but humanistic, evolving, subjective value in that case. At the risk of misrepresenting the Bible, we only seek to represent what GOD (later through Jesus) said to humanity. Take that belief away and we would drop the book like it was a chick tract.
That can be read as saying that Jesus Christ is incapable of carrying a message worth hearing - and that does seem to sum up your actual position. The roots of the disagreement are your insistence that the message is not important.
Not at al. My point is that Jesus (Being eternally alive) speaks to us today....we don't simply follow the words of humans who lived two thousand years ago. We may as well write our own book if that were the case. The key belief supporting this position is Rhema Word. If Logos...The written word from 2000 years ago...is the only record of what Jesus said, and if Jesus is believed to be just another human who lived and died...the 2000-year-old words are little more than philosophy and good human advice.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by PaulK, posted 06-13-2021 5:21 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by PaulK, posted 06-13-2021 11:47 AM Phat has replied

  
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