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Author | Topic: What have we accomplished? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Many times a "very real experience" IS a delusion. There are far too many believers who have had very real experiences. We all are not delusional."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: There are far too many believers who have had very real experiences. We all are not delusional. What evidence is there that you are not all willfully delusional?
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Cant you get it through your skull that one will never find evidence that validates belief? Evidence is not the only standard in consideration here or nobody would know anything about God.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: But they are not necessarily delusional or false simply because they are unable to be captured and quantified through evidence. Not necessarily no, it's a matter of degree.
But it is not the default. It's the default if you want to actually know something reliably. Sadly it is not the default in most people. People can and do believe anything.
You dont get to frame the issue within your atheistic materialistic construct. Ooo get you you with you're fancy dialectic! Actually I get to frame the issue anyway I like and reason seems to be the best place to start. Everywhere else leads nowhere.
There are far too many believers who have had very real experiences. We all are not delusional. You are. You are aware I guess that it's not just Christians that have these 'very real experiences'? How does that work if Jesus is the one true path? How can a Muslim and a Hindu feel the way you do about their experience if it doesn't involve Jesus?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The question was whether or not you had any evidence that they were not all willfully delusional.
Evidence is the only thing that we can test.
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Evidence is the only thing that we can test. So why must you go and test everybody? Cant you be around a person long enough to make subjective evaluations of their character? And I'm talking of the ones whom you know personally--not the church-at-large."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I can make judgements based on their behavior.
But what possible behavior would differentiate some supernatural event from a delusion?
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: And why would I want to kick the Creator of all seen and unseen to the curb? I assume you mean the invisible spaghetti monster. Why would you kick him to curb? --Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In the case of this spaghetti monster of whence you speak, there is nothing to it except a cause for humor. C'mon Percy...you cant assume that that is the idea of God that I have embraced?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes: But they(beliefs) are not necessarily delusional or false simply because they are unable to be captured and quantified through evidence. tangle writes: So we need to define rationality before we assume that rationality is the default, which I will admit is the most unbiased and logical way to proceed within a scientific context. I wont make the mistake of denying the science, though based on a worldview that allows for a spiritual war, one could do so.
Not necessarily no, it's a matter of degree. tangle writes: I'm not going to argue this point. You are correct in that it is the only unbiased standard that we have that is closest to objectivity.
It's the default if you want to actually know something reliably.(Rationality,logic, and reasonableness) Sadly it is not the default in most people. People can and do believe anything. tangle writes: Well...yes, I can admit and indeed concede the point that any of us can frame the issue any way that we like. Actually I get to frame the issue anyway I like and reason seems to be the best place to start. Everywhere else leads nowhere. But my point is that you cant simply dismiss my argument without you yourself representing this hypothetical voice of reason which you talk about. It would be as if I dismissed experiences that you had in your life simply because I found them illogical or unbelievable according to my own personal standards. In other words, why can you equate the concept of reason with your own world view yet dismiss it within the framework of my world view? Thats the basic question at this point in our discussion.
Phat writes: There are far too many believers who have had very real experiences. We all are not delusional. tangle writes: Because there are many false and misleading spirits. You are. You are aware I guess that it's not just Christians that have these 'very real experiences'? How does that work if Jesus is the one true path?How can a Muslim and a Hindu feel the way you do about their experience if it doesn't involve Jesus? Because it is a very human reaction. Then on to ringo...
ringo writes: OK, I'll give you that. But I could say that your INTERPRETATION of what we have as evidence could be at worst wrong and at best inconclusive.
Because a lot of what you THINK you know is only belief. Because your INTERPRETATION of your "experiences" may well be wrong. Tangle writes: So are you saying that all rational people by definition are atheists?
Beliefs, by definition, are not rational.Tangle writes: Gotta look this one up! verisimilitude If what you believe is rational, you would be able to demonstrate the verisimilitude to others. Wiki writes: Interesting. Verisimilitude (or truthlikeness) is the philosophical notion that some propositions are more true or less true than other propositions. The problem of verisimilitude is the problem of articulating what it takes for one false theory to be closer to the truth than another false theory.[1] This problem was central to the philosophy of Karl Popper, largely because Popper was among the first to affirm that truth is the aim of scientific inquiry while acknowledging that most of the greatest scientific theories in the history of science are, strictly speaking, false. If this long string of purportedly false theories is to constitute progress with respect to the goal of truth, then it must be at least possible for one false theory to be closer to the truth than others. (...)Popper proposed that closeness to the truth is a function of two factorstruth and content. The more truths that a theory entails (other things being equal) the closer it is to the truth. You guys are right that all I have in this argument is beliefs (unevidenced beliefs at that!)
Wiki writes: I would also argue that you have this whole default notion that any one belief is no closer to truth than any other belief. And I disagree. Popper's formal definition of verisimilitude was challenged since 1974 by Pavel Tich,[2][3] John Henry Harris,[4] and David Miller,[5] who argued that Popper's definition has an unintended consequence: that no false theory can be closer to the truth than another. Popper himself stated: "I accepted the criticism of my definition within minutes of its presentation, wondering why I had not seen the mistake before.""A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: But my point is that you cant simply dismiss my argument I can because it's irrational and subjective. All that you can say is that you had a weird experience. We call those experiences, when maintained after the fact, delusions.
It would be as if I dismissed experiences that you had in your life simply because I found them illogical or unbelievable according to my own personal standards. I am not dismissing your experience according to my standards, I'm dismissing them according to rational, objective standards.
in other words, why can you equate the concept of reason with your own world view yet dismiss it within the framework of my world view? Thats the basic question at this point in our discussion. Because my position is rational and yours isn't. An example. When asked how come other people of other religions have the same kind of experience as yours, you dismissed them with
Phat writes: Because there are many false and misleading spirits. Apart from being laughably mediaeval, you just dismissed a huge tranche of different believers with the same experience as you as delusional. Yet your delusion is exactly the same! How do you know that you are not being misled by a false spirit? You can't know can you?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: In the case of this spaghetti monster of whence you speak, there is nothing to it except a cause for humor. C'mon Percy...you cant assume that that is the idea of God that I have embraced? Pretty much. Many people sharing a delusion proves nothing. As has been argued many times here, we're both atheists, I just reject one more God than you do. --Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy writes: This would be a true statement if there were many Gods. (This is good practice for me in reconstructing a hypothetical debate viewing it from more than one world view)
As has been argued many times here, we're both atheists, I just reject one more God than you do.[ And what makes these debates complicated is that none of this can be absolutely tested. Edited by Phat, : fixed quote"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: I'll have to concede this point. One question would be this:
How do you know that you are not being misled by a false spirit? You can't know can you? I think a lot depends on confirmation bias and the source of ones information. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: I'll have to concede this point. You really need to stop there and properly think about it not just try to deflect it. Your belief is contingent on a personal experience you had. But millions of others have it too in all denominations of belief. All these others you admit are deluded but you can't say why your experience is different to theirs. Theirs are evil spirits; yours are good spirits. But you can't demonstrate to yourself let alone us that they're any different. The rationalist says they're all the same pending any further information. And no further information is ever available - even to you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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