What have we accomplished?

Many times a "very real experience" IS a delusion.

What evidence is there that you are not all willfully delusional?

Cant you get it through your skull that one will never find evidence that validates belief? Evidence is not the only standard in consideration here or nobody would know anything about God.

Not necessarily no, it's a matter of degree. It's the default if you want to actually know something reliably. Sadly it is not the default in most people. People can and do believe anything. Ooo get you you with you're fancy dialectic! Actually I get to frame the issue anyway I like and reason seems to be the best place to start. Everywhere else leads nowhere. You are.You are aware I guess that it's not just Christians that have these 'very real experiences'? How does that work if Jesus is the one true path? How can a Muslim and a Hindu feel the way you do about their experience if it doesn't involve Jesus?

The question was whether or not you had any evidence that they were not all willfully delusional.Evidence is the only thing that we can test.

So why must you go and test everybody? Cant you be around a person long enough to make subjective evaluations of their character? And I'm talking of the ones whom you know personally--not the church-at-large.

I can make judgements based on their behavior.But what possible behavior would differentiate some supernatural event from a delusion?

I assume you mean the invisible spaghetti monster. Why would you kick him to curb?--Percy

In the case of this spaghetti monster of whence you speak, there is nothing to it except a cause for humor. C'mon Percy...you cant assume that that is the idea of God that I have embraced?

So we need to define rationality before we assume that rationality is the default, which I will admit is the most unbiased and logical way to proceed within a scientific context. I wont make the mistake of denying the science, though based on a worldview that allows for a spiritual war, one could do so. I'm not going to argue this point. You are correct in that it is the only unbiased standard that we have that is closest to objectivity. Well...yes, I can admit and indeed concede the point that any of us can frame the issue any way that we like. But my point is that you cant simply dismiss my argument without you yourself representing this hypothetical voice of reason which you talk about. It would be as if I dismissed experiences that you had in your life simply because I found them illogical or unbelievable according to my own personal standards. In other words, why can you equate the concept of reason with your own world view yet dismiss it within the framework of my world view? Thats the basic question at this point in our discussion. Because there are many false and misleading spirits. Because it is a very human reaction.Then on to ringo... OK, I'll give you that. But I could say that your INTERPRETATION of what we have as evidence could be at worst wrong and at best inconclusive. So are you saying that all rational people by definition are atheists? Gotta look this one up! verisimilitude Interesting.You guys are right that all I have in this argument is beliefs (unevidenced beliefs at that!) I would also argue that you have this whole default notion that any one belief is no closer to truth than any other belief. And I disagree.

I can because it's irrational and subjective. All that you can say is that you had a weird experience. We call those experiences, when maintained after the fact, delusions. I am not dismissing your experience according to my standards, I'm dismissing them according to rational, objective standards. Because my position is rational and yours isn't. An example. When asked how come other people of other religions have the same kind of experience as yours, you dismissed them with Apart from being laughably mediaeval, you just dismissed a huge tranche of different believers with the same experience as you as delusional. Yet your delusion is exactly the same! How do you know that you are not being misled by a false spirit? You can't know can you?

Pretty much. Many people sharing a delusion proves nothing. As has been argued many times here, we're both atheists, I just reject one more God than you do.--Percy

This would be a true statement if there were many Gods. (This is good practice for me in reconstructing a hypothetical debate viewing it from more than one world view)

One mans strawman is another mans world view.

One side sees Gods as simple creations of the human mind and thus belief is totally relative and inclusive.

One side insists that God as they describe Him is exclusive,monotheistic(or tri-theistic(same thing)and revealed rather than invented.

​

And what makes these debates complicated is that none of this can be absolutely tested.

​

Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

---

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer

​

The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

I'll have to concede this point. One question would be this:

Is it easier for one guy to be deceived or is it easier for entire sub cultures to be deceived? Open for discussion.

​

I think a lot depends on confirmation bias and the source of ones information.

​

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

---

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer

​

The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

You really need to stop there and properly think about it not just try to deflect it.Your belief is contingent on a personal experience you had. But millions of others have it too in all denominations of belief. All these others you admit are deluded but you can't say why your experience is different to theirs. Theirs are evil spirits; yours are good spirits. But you can't demonstrate to yourself let alone us that they're any different.The rationalist says they're all the same pending any further information. And no further information is ever available - even to you.