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Author Topic:   What have we accomplished?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 263 (878958)
07-07-2020 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Tangle
07-07-2020 3:28 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Tangle writes:
Your belief is contingent on a personal experience you had. But millions of others have it too in all denominations of belief. All these others you admit are deluded but you can't say why your experience is different to theirs.
Not quite.
My belief is contingent on several personal experiences I have had.
I know that perhaps millions have had epiphanies in the context of their belief.
By no means am I suggesting that I can know who is and is not deluded without closer investigation...perhaps not even then.
Where I differ from you is that you wrote off all beliefs and subjective experiences as delusional. I have not.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2020 3:28 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2020 5:54 PM Phat has replied
 Message 65 by jar, posted 07-07-2020 8:08 PM Phat has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 62 of 263 (878962)
07-07-2020 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
07-07-2020 5:01 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes:
Where I differ from you is that you wrote off all beliefs and subjective experiences as delusional. I have not.
I don't think you even know that you're deflecting do you?
I didn't ask how you differed from me, I asked why you think you differ from those people in other religions that suffer from the same delusion? They have a delusion but you do not, but your experiences are the same?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 07-07-2020 5:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-08-2020 2:03 AM Tangle has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 63 of 263 (878964)
07-07-2020 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
07-07-2020 11:13 AM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes:
But I could say that your INTERPRETATION of what we have as evidence could be at worst wrong and at best inconclusive.
That's why I don't set up my "experiences" as the be-all and end-all of truth like you do. If there's no consensus about what the evidence is, I don't accept leprechauns or bigfeet or gods. If we don't know we don't know and I don't pretend that I do.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 07-07-2020 11:13 AM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 64 of 263 (878965)
07-07-2020 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
07-07-2020 3:05 PM


Re: Deception: Individual or Collective?
Phat writes:
Is it easier for one guy to be deceived or is it easier for entire sub cultures to be deceived?
Humans seem to love company in their delusions. That's why we have religions.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 07-07-2020 3:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 263 (878966)
07-07-2020 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
07-07-2020 5:01 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat, there's no major thing wrong with your beliefs other than the fact that you try to pretend that there is anything reasonable, rational, logical, factual or evidence based and that you and all of the Christian Cult of Ignorance create a whole new god in YOUR image and misrepresent what is actually contained in the Bible stories as well as all of the basic creeds and tenets and history of Christianity. You rely solely on the words and tales of fairly recent Snake-oil salesman and never honestly learn the facts of basics of the Christian religion.
Instead of throwing the God(s) and god(s) you create away you embrace them as though they actually had any base in either reality or Christian Scripture.
Edited by jar, : fix parens
Edited by jar, : of -------> or

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 07-07-2020 5:01 PM Phat has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 263 (878968)
07-08-2020 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
07-07-2020 5:54 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Tangle writes:
I asked why you think you differ from those people in other religions that suffer from the same delusion? They have a delusion but you do not, but your experiences are the same?
The answer thbat comes to mind is "Because their gods are different."
You will then ask how I know mine is not.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2020 5:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2020 2:56 AM Phat has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 67 of 263 (878969)
07-08-2020 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
07-08-2020 2:03 AM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes:
The answer thbat comes to mind is "Because their gods are different."
You will then ask how I know mine is not.
Don't you see, you're just doing it again? - deflecting.
You know that is not an answer, yet you bang it out anyway. It's so you don't actually have to think about it.
Your experience is shared by millions of people with different gods as their belief. The delusion is the common element. You agree with me that they are deluded - in your terms, misled by false gods and demons - but you are still certain that your experience is the correct one. Despite the fact that the others would say exactly the same. Can you at least accept that that looks completely dumb to an objective outsider?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-08-2020 2:03 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 07-08-2020 10:12 AM Tangle has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 263 (878974)
07-08-2020 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Tangle
07-08-2020 2:56 AM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Tangle writes:
You know that is not an answer, yet you bang it out anyway. It's so you don't actually have to think about it.
Perhaps I will slow down and think about it. I am, to be honest, unlikely to change my belief simply because your arguments seem more logical on the surface. I believe that we live in some interesting times---supernatural times, even. I have always believed the stuff that I have and you have always called me out on it. I predict that times will get worse before they get better and that a time will come when there are enough of what you call "nutters" spreading what you call a false ideology that your side will actually oppose them and seek to shut them up as a public health nuisance.
Of course you will claim that "my side" has a collective martyr complex and that we preach doom and gloom.
But allow me to stop and think as you suggest and fully understand this concept of "deflecting"...shall I?
Tangle writes:
Your experience is shared by millions of people with different gods as their belief. The delusion is the common element. You agree with me that they are deluded - in your terms, misled by false gods and demons - but you are still certain that your experience is the correct one. Despite the fact that the others would say exactly the same. Can you at least accept that that looks completely dumb to an objective outsider?
Yes, I can accept that.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2020 2:56 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2020 11:14 AM Phat has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 69 of 263 (878975)
07-08-2020 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
07-08-2020 10:12 AM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes:
I am, to be honest, unlikely to change my belief simply because your arguments seem more logical on the surface.irrational
It's more than superficial logic isn't it? The fact that you can't actually refute it should tell you that. But you're obsessed with changing your belief. Nobody here seriously thinks you're even remotely likely to do that. All we're trying to do is get you to accept that your beliefs are irrational and self-serving.
I believe that we live in some interesting times---supernatural times, even. I have always believed the stuff that I have and you have always called me out on it.
All you crack-pot fundies have thought that throughout time.
I predict that times will get worse before they get better and that a time will come when there are enough of what you call "nutters" spreading what you call a false ideology that your side will actually oppose them and seek to shut them up as a public health nuisance.
You're really shit at predicting stuff from your religion and really excellent at predicting what we think will happen ... hence...
Of course you will claim that "my side" has a collective martyr complex and that we preach doom and gloom.
The thing is Phat I can point to piles of evidence of your lot saying that down the centuries and you can't point to anything but prophetic failures. You guys all think that you and your time is special and the end-times are just around the corner. But they never ever are. That's simply a fact, proven true every day.
I'd ask you to take a bet on it but that would be cruel.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 07-08-2020 10:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-08-2020 5:46 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 07-08-2020 6:22 PM Tangle has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 263 (878977)
07-08-2020 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tangle
07-08-2020 11:14 AM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Tangle writes:
All we're trying to do is get you to accept that your beliefs are irrational and self-serving.
Honestly, I DO think that the beliefs that I have chosen to accept are quite irrational. (From the standpoint of a rational secularist). To begin with, (and looking at it from your point of view and not mine) God Himself existing is a bit irrational. You argue that God is a simple creation of the human mind, but I disagree and agree both. The God Who is is the Creator of all seen and unseen...including our human mind. That being said, humans can and do make up numerous gods all day every day. Just look at RPG games and some of the Sci-Fi creations on there!
If we get past all of that and accept that a Creator of all seen and unseen could possibly exist and being that Jesus as Gods relational character for humanity is accepted, the irrationality again starts with several questions.
1) Why do humans have to be forgiven? Why was rebellion and autonomy the default condition of the human heart? And I would argue that it was.
2) Why is the world going to "end"? (At least the world as we now know it...the global community of humans)
3) Why do so few people actually accept this? And why do so few people actually accept the reality of Jesus Christ?
4) And why does the Euro-Centric God(and Jesus) of Western Christianity predominate over the Eastern concepts of Karma, Mindfulness, and passive acceptance?
5) jar once brought up one: Why must God sacrifice His Son? If God is going to forgive, why not just blanket-forgive every human? Why do we need to surrender or give up a part of our intrinsic nature in order for this whole plot scenario to work?
As far as self-serving, I claim no special status. In fact, this is the one thing I dislike about Christianity---that I am called to serve rather than be served and that I am called to suffer and that indeed there may never be any special rewards for doing so.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2020 11:14 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2020 3:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 263 (878978)
07-08-2020 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tangle
07-08-2020 11:14 AM


Self Serving Beliefs
Tangle writes:
The thing is Phat I can point to piles of evidence of your lot saying that down the centuries and you can't point to anything but prophetic failures. You guys all think that you and your time is special and the end-times are just around the corner. But they never ever are. That's simply a fact, proven true every day.
A fact is a fact until an exception is found. The next 20 years will be an exception. The spiritual will come out of the closet. Here is some evidence I have:
Climate change isn't our only existential threat
I'd ask you to take a bet on it but that would be cruel.
Were I still a betting man, I would take you up on it. I would define the "bet" as follows. Within the next 20 years (specifically) the world as we know it will not only have changed beyond familiar recognition but in fact we collectively will see and hear of supernatural manifestations....deliverance, healing, and a massive revival. We also will see attempts by a global consensus-at-large to maintain rationality, optimism, and denial of ancient religions.
One possible scenario which I cannot dismiss is the idea that global change will happen, tolerance and a consensual resolve to eliminate ancient "myths" from being pushed onto the impressionable young will be enforced, and yet God will not have rescued the Christians as we thought He would. At that point, my flesh and my inner indignation at the sheer audacity of a world determined to go right around us and ignore us will rise up within me and I will be hard pressed at that point not to appear self-serving.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2020 11:14 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2020 2:37 AM Phat has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 72 of 263 (878982)
07-09-2020 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
07-08-2020 6:22 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Phat writes:
A fact is a fact until an exception is found. The next 20 years will be an exception. The spiritual will come out of the closet.
And that, of course, is what your kind of people have said for 2,000 years. You all think that your time is special. It's all about you.
Here is some evidence I have:
Climate change isn't our only existential threat
What you have there is evidence of man's stupidity. Your god's creation. It's always possible that terrible things will happen. There is no evidence of anything supernatural.
Within the next 20 years (specifically) the world as we know it will not only have changed beyond familiar recognition but in fact we collectively will see and hear of supernatural manifestations....deliverance, healing, and a massive revival.
Crap. What will you do when these supernatural events do not happen?
We also will see attempts by a global consensus-at-large to maintain rationality, optimism, and denial of ancient religions.
We can only hope so. But it won't come from some kind of organised global conspiracy that you nutters like to invent, it'll just be the continuation of what's been happening for the last 200 years. People understanding that your hocus pocus ideas are daft.
One possible scenario which I cannot dismiss is the idea that global change will happen, tolerance and a consensual resolve to eliminate ancient "myths" from being pushed onto the impressionable young will be enforced, and yet God will not have rescued the Christians as we thought He would. At that point, my flesh and my inner indignation at the sheer audacity of a world determined to go right around us and ignore us will rise up within me and I will be hard pressed at that point not to appear self-serving.
Luckily for you neither of those things will happen. You won't be persecuted and god won't need to rescue you from it. You and your beliefs are just not as important as you think you and they are.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 07-08-2020 6:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-09-2020 3:50 AM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 73 of 263 (878983)
07-09-2020 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
07-08-2020 5:46 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes:
Honestly, I DO think that the beliefs that I have chosen to accept are quite irrational. (From the standpoint of a rational secularist).
It doesn't need the qualifier - it's just irrational.
To begin with, (and looking at it from your point of view and not mine) God Himself existing is a bit irrational.
The concept of a god that made the universe billions of years ago to my mind is the least irrational thing of your beliefs. It does at least answer the something from nothing question (though leaves the infinite regress problem wide open.)
You argue that God is a simple creation of the human mind, but I disagree and agree both. The God Who is is the Creator of all seen and unseen...including our human mind. That being said, humans can and do make up numerous gods all day every day. Just look at RPG games and some of the Sci-Fi creations on there!
Well yes.
If we get past all of that and accept that a Creator of all seen and unseen could possibly exist and being that Jesus as Gods relational character for humanity is accepted, the irrationality again starts with several questions.
No. You can not get from 'god exists' to 'Jesus is god'. That's simply an unfounded assertion.
1) Why do humans have to be forgiven? Why was rebellion and autonomy the default condition of the human heart? And I would argue that it was.
2) Why is the world going to "end"? (At least the world as we now know it...the global community of humans)
All this is just fabricated religious bunkum.
3) Why do so few people actually accept this? And why do so few people actually accept the reality of Jesus Christ?
Because it's fabricated religious bunkum.
4) And why does the Euro-Centric God(and Jesus) of Western Christianity predominate over the Eastern concepts of Karma, Mindfulness, and passive acceptance?
It doesn't. Each belief system is pure historical accident. What people believe is predicted by where they were born and who to. There is no recorded incident of someone spontaneously believing in a god they had never been taught or learnt about.
5) jar once brought up one: Why must God sacrifice His Son? If God is going to forgive, why not just blanket-forgive every human? Why do we need to surrender or give up a part of our intrinsic nature in order for this whole plot scenario to work?
Because it's religious made up bunkum.
As far as self-serving, I claim no special status.
You do, you tell us god speaks to you - how much more special can you get?
In fact, this is the one thing I dislike about Christianity---that I am called to serve rather than be served and that I am called to suffer and that indeed there may never be any special rewards for doing so.
And that too is just religious bunkum.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-08-2020 5:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 263 (878984)
07-09-2020 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tangle
07-09-2020 2:37 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
What will you do when these supernatural events do not happen?
What will you do when they do? Im already predicting that the science minded skeptics will attempt to explain all of them away since, in their esteemed world view, such things simply do not happen.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2020 2:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2020 4:03 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 07-09-2020 12:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 75 of 263 (878985)
07-09-2020 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
07-09-2020 3:50 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Phat writes:
What will you do when they do?
That's easy. If the facts change I'll change my mind.
Im already predicting that the science minded skeptics will attempt to explain all of them away since, in their esteemed world view, such things simply do not happen.
I don't think you and your kind properly understand science. Well actually I know you don't.
If there came a sudden, worldwide, widespread and inexplicable rash of miraculous events, science would attempt to find explanations. But real miracles - by definition - can not be explained by natural causes so science would have nothing to say about them except that it can't explain them. A few million people crawling back out of their graves would do it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-09-2020 3:50 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Kleinman, posted 07-09-2020 9:47 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 82 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2020 1:04 AM Tangle has not replied

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