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Author Topic:   What have we accomplished?
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 76 of 263 (878990)
07-09-2020 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tangle
07-09-2020 4:03 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Tangle writes:
I don't think you and your kind properly understand science. Well actually I know you don't.
And your kind does? Where are the fish evolves to mammals kind scientific explanations of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments?
You won't give it because your pseudo-scientific beliefs only self serve your atheism. You have chosen the wrong faith and it blinds you to the physical and mathematical facts of life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2020 4:03 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2020 1:15 AM Kleinman has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 263 (878994)
07-09-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
07-09-2020 3:50 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Phat writes:
Tangle writes:
What will you do when these supernatural events do not happen?
What will you do when they do? Im already predicting that the science minded skeptics will attempt to explain all of them away...
The thing is, you guys already have things that you claim are supernatural - strange voices, faces on tacos, etc. Some of those things can be explained - e.g. pareidolia. If they can not be expained, the proper conclusion is, "We don't know." The WORST conclusion is, "It's a miracle done by God - MY God, not somebody else's god."
It's always been like that, always has been, always will be (barring a universal abandonment of all gods). There are not going to be more "miraculous" events in the next 20 years. As the number of religious nuts decreases, it is likely that they will become louder.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-09-2020 3:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 263 (879000)
07-09-2020 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
07-07-2020 7:19 AM


Re: Airing The Arguments
jar writes:
But what possible behavior would differentiate some supernatural event from a delusion?
Great question. And the answer which I have found(a scripture which many use to validate the Rapture) actually supports your point that Christianity is about what we do.
This scripture is:
2 Thess 2:1-12 writes:
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
NKJV
Now to be fair, I read the rest of Thessalonians(both of them) and began to get a context of what was expected and endured by Christians of that time.
2 Thess 1:3-6 writes:
because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer
This supports you and ringos arguments that being Christians(or even good secular humanists who claim no title) involves what ringo calls blood, toil,tears,sweat and spare change. I need to be honest with what I find in scripture, even if it chalks up points for your arguments.
Basically, 2 Thessalonians does not so much support the concept of a Rapture so much as it supports the idea that true Christians have a love for each other, are willing to suffer for it, and endure in collective hope for Gods eventual vindication.
Thus in answer to your question as to what possible behavior would differentiate some supernatural event from a delusion, the answer would appear to be the sacrificial love shown by the believers to everyone else.
Perhaps the lie is not so much the believers "fantasies vs the rational world so much as it is the very lie that they will escape the hard work of saving the other victims of the collapsed society and world of that time. This sobers me up....i'm not sure if an old man like me is ready for a bunch of hard work at this late time in my life. Pastor Isaiah speaks of the excitement of being alive during what he calls supernatural times and a season of deliverance, healing, and revival...but while not disagreeing with him, I think that the sacrifice that the Christians will have to endure may cause the love of many to grow cold.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 07-07-2020 7:19 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-09-2020 3:45 PM Phat has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 79 of 263 (879010)
07-09-2020 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
07-09-2020 1:35 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes:
Pastor Isaiah speaks of the excitement of being alive during what he calls supernatural times and a season of deliverance, healing, and revival...but while not disagreeing with him, I think that the sacrifice that the Christians will have to endure may cause the love of many to grow cold.
Conmen always sell the easy and attractive crap.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 07-09-2020 1:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 07-09-2020 4:10 PM jar has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 263 (879011)
07-09-2020 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
07-09-2020 3:45 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
you always accuse all of them of being conmen...only because they do not follow your logic...which i will say is uninspired and itself a possible con.
one thing is evident....you disagree with and dislike their message yet have no more evidence that it is false than you have that yours will prove more true.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-09-2020 3:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-09-2020 4:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 07-10-2020 10:08 AM Phat has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 263 (879013)
07-09-2020 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
07-09-2020 4:10 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
LOL
Phat, just a single reply above you even quoted some of the evidence that exists but also pointed out that you did not like the lesson.
The conmen sell the pretty, the sizzle, the easy out, the happy endings and claim that is what the message of Jesus says.
But then when folk point out what is actually written in the stories and the creeds you claim that they have no evidence.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 07-09-2020 4:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 82 of 263 (879021)
07-10-2020 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tangle
07-09-2020 4:03 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
A few million people crawling back out of their graves would do it.
Or everyone finding their lost car keys under the same streetlamp at the same time.
Or after drinking the Miracle Spring Water everyone receives a check for $40,000 in the ... in the MAIL!

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2020 4:03 AM Tangle has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 83 of 263 (879023)
07-10-2020 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Kleinman
07-09-2020 9:47 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Where are the fish evolves to mammals kind scientific explanations of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments?
Oh fuck off, Kleinman. Your errant analyses of the Kishony and Lenski experiments means nothing to us fish-to-mammal aficionados. Your views on the subject mean nothing to us, to your peers, to any geneticist, biologist or mathematician on the planet.
You're still shouting inanities into the aether.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Kleinman, posted 07-09-2020 9:47 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Kleinman, posted 07-10-2020 9:46 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 84 of 263 (879029)
07-10-2020 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by AZPaul3
07-10-2020 1:15 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
Where are the fish evolves to mammals kind scientific explanations of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments?
AZPaul3 writes:
Oh fuck off, Kleinman. Your errant analyses of the Kishony and Lenski experiments means nothing to us fish-to-mammal aficionados. Your views on the subject mean nothing to us, to your peers, to any geneticist, biologist or mathematician on the planet.
You're still shouting inanities into the aether.
AZPaul3 is right about one thing, the "Kishony and Lenski experiments means nothing to us fish-to-mammal aficionados". These experiments reveal your delusions. And I do want to thank you for your help in the conclusion section of my next paper. And you must think that peer-reviewers live in your imaginary, mythological aether because that is where the paper goes next. Somebody needs to teach you fish-to-mammals aficionados how to do Markov Chain processes to describe DNA evolution. You should watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1GxFKtxF-I
Then you will understand why the "Kishony and Lenski experiments means nothing to us fish-to-mammal aficionados". These experiments expose your delusions. And if your "fish-to-mammal aficionados" were really experts on evolution, they would give the correct mathematical explanation for these two experiments but they and you don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2020 1:15 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2020 1:29 PM Kleinman has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 85 of 263 (879031)
07-10-2020 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
07-09-2020 4:10 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes:
one thing is evident....you disagree with and dislike their message yet have no more evidence that it is false than you have that yours will prove more true.
Interesting mishmash of words: It is evident that there is no evidence?
But you refuse to even look at the evidence.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 07-09-2020 4:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 07-10-2020 2:29 PM ringo has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 86 of 263 (879041)
07-10-2020 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Kleinman
07-10-2020 9:46 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
You should watch this video:
Did you watch the video? You were predominately featured when he defined "delusional".
Your citing this video is a textbook case of projection. You really need help.
A suggestion for your paper. Do not include any discussion of how your Markov Chain mathematics and your use of stochastic processes proves that evolution from banana to fish to monkey to man is impossible. You already have enough scorn heaped on your reputation why invite more?
On second thought, maybe you should include a lengthy section on the topic. Maybe the fierce negative feedback will penetrate that ego-castle you built around yourself and bring some reality into your thoughts. That has got to be healthier than where you are now.
And drugs. Maybe you can do some drugs. Legally. On prescription.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Kleinman, posted 07-10-2020 9:46 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Kleinman, posted 07-10-2020 2:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 87 of 263 (879049)
07-10-2020 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
07-10-2020 10:08 AM


Re: Airing The Arguments
ringo writes:
Interesting mishmash of words: It is evident that there is no evidence?
What I meant was that it is evident to me that jar has no evidence that his interpretation of the plain reading of the Bible coupled with his judgement of the message of mainstream apologetics is any more likely to be the way that life will ultimately play out. And lets be fair here. Both of you claim that Jesus is simply a character in a book rather than an actual living presence that we can know. Yet you defend your message as to what Christianity should\ be about (a secular humanist do-gooders club) and vilify what you think it is (a carny huckster group of con men selling a false ideology to the gullible masses) That's what I see.
But you refuse to even look at the evidence.
Evidence for what? That Jesus is real? There is as of yet no objective evidence available. Subjectively, many have experienced His touch...yet you scoff at these people. It makes one wonder why you are so spiteful towards Biblical Christians. Is it simply the politics? The aura of exclusivity? Or is it something more. The despising of authority? The intrinsic dislike of the God we market?
Lets go with that last one. If God was actually like the God that the apologists market, would you obey Him or would you oppose Him? Why or why not?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 07-10-2020 10:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 07-10-2020 2:44 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 07-10-2020 4:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 88 of 263 (879050)
07-10-2020 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
07-10-2020 2:29 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes:
What I meant was that it is evident to me that jar has no evidence that his interpretation of the plain reading of the Bible coupled with his judgement of the message of mainstream apologetics is any more likely to be the way that life will ultimately play out.
Once again Phat you are either attempting to prove that you are incapable of reading what I post or are once again trying to misrepresent what I post.
Why must you always resort to at best, misrepresentation of what others post?
What I assert is that what is actually written in the Bible is what the authors actually wrote in the stories. My position can be tested by going and reading what is actually written and in your very posts you have shown that when even YOU actually go and read honestly and fully what is written you agree that it support our position.
And each time you tell us that you don't like that conclusion. See Message 78.
But you have NEVER provided similar support for what YOU like and what the Apologist market.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 07-10-2020 2:29 PM Phat has not replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 89 of 263 (879052)
07-10-2020 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by AZPaul3
07-10-2020 1:29 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
You should watch this video:
AZPaul3 writes:
Did you watch the video? You were predominately featured when he defined "delusional".
I'm not the one who thinks that fish evolve into mammals yet can't explain the simplest examples of evolution. It is you fish-to-mammal aficionados that have lost contact with reality and you have blindly bought into this irrationality. Next you will be telling us all the earth is flat. You need to come to your senses, the ignorance and delusions of the fish-to-mammal aficionados is harming people with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2020 1:29 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2020 3:21 PM Kleinman has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 90 of 263 (879055)
07-10-2020 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Kleinman
07-10-2020 2:53 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
... the ignorance and delusions of the fish-to-mammal aficionados is harming people with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments.
Really? How so? Can you point to the studies in the discipline, other than your own, that detail this harm and its cause? Can you show us independent evidence, not from you since you are a known crackpot, where the modern theory of evolution harms people with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments?
Some studies from Nature and NEJM would be nice. Got any?

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Kleinman, posted 07-10-2020 2:53 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Kleinman, posted 07-10-2020 4:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied

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