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Author Topic:   What have we accomplished?
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 584 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 136 of 263 (879257)
07-13-2020 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by PaulK
07-13-2020 4:47 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
You've been so helpful in my misunderstand until now.
PaulK writes:
I’m sorry that I’m not a better teacher then.
But until you understand that Jukes-Cantor models neutral evolution - because that is the dominant form of DNA evolution - you will remain hopelessly wrong on the subject.
PaulK will now explain the difference between neutral evolution and selective evolution using Markov chains. He will then show us how to write the correct transition matrix to include the effects of selection. But first, he's going to use the Jukes-Cantor model to show how he is directly related to bananas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2020 4:47 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2020 5:06 PM Kleinman has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17907
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 137 of 263 (879260)
07-13-2020 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Kleinman
07-13-2020 4:59 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
The models we have were produced by people far better informed than I. You could actually try to understand them instead of dismissing them because you don’t understand them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Kleinman, posted 07-13-2020 4:59 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Kleinman, posted 07-13-2020 5:20 PM PaulK has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 584 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 138 of 263 (879261)
07-13-2020 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by PaulK
07-13-2020 5:06 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
PaulK will now explain the difference between neutral evolution and selective evolution using Markov chains. He will then show us how to write the correct transition matrix to include the effects of selection. But first, he's going to use the Jukes-Cantor model to show how he is directly related to bananas.
PaulK writes:
The models we have were produced by people far better informed than I. You could actually try to understand them instead of dismissing them because you don’t understand them.
Of course, you won't give us the explanation of how to include selection in the Jukes-Cantor model. You first have to understand how the Jukes-Cantor model works as written. And you don't. If you want to know how to rewrite the Jukes-Cantor model to include selection, you will have to read my next paper which you so kindly helped lift the writer's block I was having in writing the conclusion to that paper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2020 5:06 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2020 11:48 PM Kleinman has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 139 of 263 (879262)
07-13-2020 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Trump won
06-29-2020 5:15 PM


quote:
RIP to the dead greats that made this place great. robinrohan, buz, razd, asgara
RAZD is dead?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Trump won, posted 06-29-2020 5:15 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Trump won, posted 07-13-2020 6:23 PM Larni has not replied
 Message 141 by AZPaul3, posted 07-13-2020 8:06 PM Larni has not replied

Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 140 of 263 (879263)
07-13-2020 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Larni
07-13-2020 5:24 PM


yes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Larni, posted 07-13-2020 5:24 PM Larni has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 141 of 263 (879268)
07-13-2020 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Larni
07-13-2020 5:24 PM


RAZD is dead?
Yes, he is gone. Please go to In Memoriam: RAZD and leave a message for his family.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Larni, posted 07-13-2020 5:24 PM Larni has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17907
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


(1)
Message 142 of 263 (879274)
07-13-2020 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Kleinman
07-13-2020 5:20 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
quote:
Of course, you won't give us the explanation of how to include selection in the Jukes-Cantor model. You first have to understand how the Jukes-Cantor model works as written. And you don't
Oh, I think I know, but it wouldn’t be very sensible for reasons that should be obvious. But you won’t see them.
quote:
And you don't. If you want to know how to rewrite the Jukes-Cantor model to include selection, you will have to read my next paper which you so kindly helped lift the writer's block I was having in writing the conclusion to that paper.
If there is a paper I very much doubt that it will include any such thing. And if it is presented as a correction to the model it will doubtless be laughed at.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Kleinman, posted 07-13-2020 5:20 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Kleinman, posted 07-14-2020 4:51 AM PaulK has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 584 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 143 of 263 (879291)
07-14-2020 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by PaulK
07-13-2020 11:48 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
Of course, you won't give us the explanation of how to include selection in the Jukes-Cantor model. You first have to understand how the Jukes-Cantor model works as written. And you don't
PaulK writes:
Oh, I think I know, but it wouldn’t be very sensible for reasons that should be obvious. But you won’t see them.
You fish to mammals aficionados really have wild imaginations. If you think you understand the Jukes-Cantor model, show us how to solve for the equilibrium time without assuming a Poisson distribution. You won't because you don't understand this math. I know how to do that and the math is easy. Any high school student can do the math if they passed an introductory algebra course, that is if you understand how to do the mathematics of Markov chains. And you don't. Do you know that MIT and Harvard lectures on the mathematics of Markov chains are available on YouTube? You should watch them and learn something about this math.
Kleinman writes:
And you don't. If you want to know how to rewrite the Jukes-Cantor model to include selection, you will have to read my next paper which you so kindly helped lift the writer's block I was having in writing the conclusion to that paper.
PaulK writes:
If there is a paper I very much doubt that it will include any such thing. And if it is presented as a correction to the model it will doubtless be laughed at.
You have a sickness PaulK. If you think that giving the correct explanation for the evolution of drug-resistance and the failure of cancer treatment should be laughed at, there is something wrong with your mind. Why is it so important to you to believe that fish can evolve into mammals when you can't correctly explain simple evolutionary experiments such as the Kishony and Lenski experiments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2020 11:48 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 12:03 PM Kleinman has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 661 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 144 of 263 (879297)
07-14-2020 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Kleinman
07-13-2020 1:10 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
Of course, if you want to explain the bananas-to-ringo evolutionary process, we would find that very amusing.
Again you're not paying attention. Bananas and humans are distant cousins. There is no direct cousin-to-cousin line of descent.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Kleinman, posted 07-13-2020 1:10 PM Kleinman has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17907
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 145 of 263 (879299)
07-14-2020 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Kleinman
07-14-2020 4:51 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
quote:
You fish to mammals aficionados really have wild imaginations.
So you can’t see the obvious problems.
quote:
you think you understand the Jukes-Cantor model, show us how to solve for the equilibrium time without assuming a Poisson distribution. You won't because you don't understand this math. I know how to do that and the math is easy.
It’s funny then that you’re the one who keeps failing to understand. Or demonstrate any real mathematical ability.
quote:
You have a sickness PaulK
I think not.
quote:
If you think that giving the correct explanation for the evolution of drug-resistance and the failure of cancer treatment should be laughed at, there is something wrong with your mind.
I certainly don’t think that. That idea is a product of your vivid - and sick - imagination.
Get help. You need it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Kleinman, posted 07-14-2020 4:51 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Kleinman, posted 07-14-2020 12:28 PM PaulK has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 584 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 146 of 263 (879303)
07-14-2020 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by PaulK
07-14-2020 12:03 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
If you think that giving the correct explanation for the evolution of drug-resistance and the failure of cancer treatment should be laughed at, there is something wrong with your mind.
PaulK writes:
I certainly don’t think that. That idea is a product of your vivid - and sick - imagination.
Get help. You need it.
So, in your vivid - and sick - imagination, you think you understand the mathematics of the Jukes-Cantor model. The Jukes-Cantor model is a time-dependent problem so it must have some initial condition. Tell us what that initial condition is and whether it is a scalar, vector, or matrix.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 12:03 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 12:37 PM Kleinman has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17907
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 147 of 263 (879305)
07-14-2020 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Kleinman
07-14-2020 12:28 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
quote:
So, in your vivid - and sick - imagination, you think you understand the mathematics of the Jukes-Cantor model.
I’ve proven that I understand it better than you, although that is a low bar, accomplished by reading a couple of web pages - both of which you’ve cited.
quote:
The Jukes-Cantor model is a time-dependent problem so it must have some initial condition. Tell us what that initial condition is and whether it is a scalar, vector, or matrix.
I really don’t have to jump through hoops for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Kleinman, posted 07-14-2020 12:28 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Kleinman, posted 07-14-2020 1:26 PM PaulK has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 584 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 148 of 263 (879308)
07-14-2020 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
07-14-2020 12:37 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
The Jukes-Cantor model is a time-dependent problem so it must have some initial condition. Tell us what that initial condition is and whether it is a scalar, vector, or matrix.
PaulK writes:
I really don’t have to jump through hoops for you.
You don't know! You don't understand the Jukes-Cantor model. You just like blowing smoke. But that's all right, you still helped me with my writer's block.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 12:37 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 1:35 PM Kleinman has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17907
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 149 of 263 (879309)
07-14-2020 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Kleinman
07-14-2020 1:26 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
quote:
You don't know! You don't understand the Jukes-Cantor model. You just like blowing smoke.
If that was true I wouldn’t be so successful in pointing out your grievous errors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Kleinman, posted 07-14-2020 1:26 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Kleinman, posted 07-14-2020 1:59 PM PaulK has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 584 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 150 of 263 (879310)
07-14-2020 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
07-14-2020 1:35 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
You don't know! You don't understand the Jukes-Cantor model. You just like blowing smoke.
PaulK writes:
If that was true I wouldn’t be so successful in pointing out your grievous errors.
Don't do it for me, do it for your fellow fish-to-mammals aficionados.
The Jukes-Cantor model is a time-dependent problem so it must have some initial condition. Tell us what that initial condition is and whether it is a scalar, vector, or matrix.
Jump through that hoop for your fellow fish-to-mammals aficionados. I don't need you to do that for me, I can answer that question. You can't. All you can do is blow smoke and very stinky smoke it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 1:35 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 3:36 PM Kleinman has replied

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