Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What have we accomplished?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 166 of 263 (879376)
07-15-2020 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Kleinman
07-15-2020 1:55 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
More evasion. You can’t describe your model because you don’t have one or know how to build one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Kleinman, posted 07-15-2020 1:55 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Kleinman, posted 07-15-2020 2:56 PM PaulK has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 167 of 263 (879386)
07-15-2020 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by PaulK
07-15-2020 2:20 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
PaulK writes:
More evasion. You can’t describe your model because you don’t have one or know how to build one.
PaulK really has to expand his reading list beyond fossil tea-leaf reading journals and Mad magazine.
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
And coming soon to you in a real scientific journal near you, "The Kishony Experiment, a Markov Chain Process".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 2:20 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 3:05 PM Kleinman has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 168 of 263 (879387)
07-15-2020 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Kleinman
07-15-2020 2:56 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
I’ve read those papers. I’m not sure you have. You certainly didn’t read those web pages about the Jukes-Cantor model. Let alone any more authoritative source. Nobody writing a scientific paper relating to that model could be as ignorant of it as you were,
Which is how I know you aren’t writing a paper and don’t have a model.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Kleinman, posted 07-15-2020 2:56 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Kleinman, posted 07-15-2020 3:28 PM PaulK has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 169 of 263 (879390)
07-15-2020 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by PaulK
07-15-2020 3:05 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
PaulK writes:
I’ve read those papers. I’m not sure you have. You certainly didn’t read those web pages about the Jukes-Cantor model. Let alone any more authoritative source. Nobody writing a scientific paper relating to that model could be as ignorant of it as you were,
Which is how I know you aren’t writing a paper and don’t have a model.
But you do know that fish evolve into mammals and you are descended from bananas. Knowledge just gushes out of you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 3:05 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 3:43 PM Kleinman has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 170 of 263 (879392)
07-15-2020 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Kleinman
07-15-2020 3:28 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
If you had a model you could talk about it. You could show that I was wrong. But you don’t because I’m right.
(And you really think that a 2 base Jukes-Cantor would be worth worth doing and a 3 base version isn’t? Message 1891. Oh dear, oh dear.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Kleinman, posted 07-15-2020 3:28 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Kleinman, posted 07-15-2020 5:47 PM PaulK has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 171 of 263 (879404)
07-15-2020 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by PaulK
07-15-2020 3:43 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
PaulK writes:
If you had a model you could talk about it. You could show that I was wrong. But you don’t because I’m right.
(And you really think that a 2 base Jukes-Cantor would be worth worth doing and a 3 base version isn’t? Message 1891. Oh dear, oh dear.)
The 3 base version of the non-stationary Jukes-Cantor model and a mutation rate of E-9 will take over 1e26 replications (not generations, you dodo) for each successful evolutionary step (and that is not equilibrium). For a mutation rate of e-5 (about that of hiv), it will take about 1e15 replications for each evolutionary step. That's why combination therapy works for the treatment of hiv. You see, when you write the correct transition matrix for DNA evolution, you get the same results as what you get from this model:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 3:43 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Trump won, posted 07-16-2020 12:06 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 174 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2020 12:12 AM Kleinman has replied

Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 172 of 263 (879409)
07-16-2020 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Kleinman
07-15-2020 5:47 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
what's the computation for abiogenesis? in terms of probability, that matter sprang from nothing or proteins from nothing, inanimate matter to organic matter?
what's the probability of abiogenesis occuring and creating reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Kleinman, posted 07-15-2020 5:47 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 9:29 AM Trump won has replied
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 07-16-2020 12:37 PM Trump won has not replied

Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 173 of 263 (879410)
07-16-2020 12:10 AM


Alan Kleinman | California State University USA | Bacteriology 2019 | Pulsus Conference
Kleinman's the real deal. funny the guys with the credentials are skewing creationist these days.

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 174 of 263 (879411)
07-16-2020 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Kleinman
07-15-2020 5:47 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
quote:
The 3 base version of the non-stationary Jukes-Cantor model and a mutation rate of E-9 will take over 1e26 replications (not generations, you dodo) for each successful evolutionary step (and that is not equilibrium).
Oh, you mean a model which requires three bases to change? In sequence? Well that isn’t very sensible. Not that the two base model would be worth doing either. Of course models of selection aren’t Jukes-Cantor or corrections of Jukes-Cantor - even if you only track one base. I’m sorry for thinking that you might at least have been considering the real problems of modelling the Kishony experiment with a Markov chain.
But there is a very sensible reason why a model that uses selection might want to track three bases and not two.
But you don’t know it because you don’t have a model and aren’t even trying to build one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Kleinman, posted 07-15-2020 5:47 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 9:33 AM PaulK has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 175 of 263 (879425)
07-16-2020 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Trump won
07-16-2020 12:06 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
a servant of Christ writes:
what's the computation for abiogenesis? in terms of probability, that matter sprang from nothing or proteins from nothing, inanimate matter to organic matter?
what's the probability of abiogenesis occuring and creating reality?
Those computations were done years ago. The mathematics of abiogenesis is even more irrational than the mathematics of the theory of evolution. Abiogenesis and the TOE are the dumb and dumber of the field of biology. And the fish-to-mammals aficionados think that selection makes the mathematics more rational for the TOE. The only problem is that they don't do the math.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Trump won, posted 07-16-2020 12:06 AM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Trump won, posted 07-16-2020 1:10 PM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 176 of 263 (879426)
07-16-2020 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by PaulK
07-16-2020 12:12 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
The 3 base version of the non-stationary Jukes-Cantor model and a mutation rate of E-9 will take over 1e26 replications (not generations, you dodo) for each successful evolutionary step (and that is not equilibrium).
PaulK writes:
Oh, you mean a model which requires three bases to change? In sequence? Well that isn’t very sensible. Not that the two base model would be worth doing either. Of course models of selection aren’t Jukes-Cantor or corrections of Jukes-Cantor - even if you only track one base. I’m sorry for thinking that you might at least have been considering the real problems of modelling the Kishony experiment with a Markov chain.
But there is a very sensible reason why a model that uses selection might want to track three bases and not two.
But you don’t know it because you don’t have a model and aren’t even trying to build one.
There's no point in discussing my model when the mathematically incompetent PaulK doesn't understand the Jukes-Cantor model and what is simulates physically. Since PaulK can't even tell us what the intial condition is for the Jukes-Cantor model and whether it is a scalar, vector, or matrix, (and none of the fish-to-mammals aficionados on this forum can do it as well), I guess I'll have to do it. Put your bibs on fish-to-mammals aficionados as I spoon feed you some mathematics. And remember, don't play with your food, all you do is make a mess that someone else has to clean up. So back to the Wikipedia page on Markov Chain DNA evolution models:
DNA evolution as a continuous-time Markov chain
Wikipedia writes:
Continuous-time Markov chains have the usual transition matrices which are, in addition, parameterized by time, t. Specifically, if E1, E2 ,E3, E4 are the states, then the transition matrix (P(t)=P{ij}(t)) where each individual entry, P{ij}(t) refers to the probability that state Ei will change to state Ej in time t.
Then go a little further down the page and find the paragraph titled "Deriving the dynamics of substitution" and you will find the vector equation:
E = {A,G,C,T}
where A, G, C, and T are the frequencies of the particular bases at the particular site being considered. Thus, when i=0 that is time=0, the initial condition, E0 = {A0,G0,C0,T0}. The initial condition is a vector of the frequencies of the different possible bases at the given site. Understand rubberband? Now, you of little understanding, how do you compute the state of the system when i=1, that is, how do you compute E1? Let's see if your dark mind can shed a little light on this subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2020 12:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2020 10:21 AM Kleinman has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 177 of 263 (879432)
07-16-2020 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Trump won
07-16-2020 12:06 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
a Servant of Christ writes:
matter sprang from nothing or proteins from nothing...
Nobody is suggesting that proteins "sprang" from nothing. They developed from something that was kinda like proteins but not quite proteins. The probability of each step in the many steps is pretty high.
a Servant of Christ writes:
... inanimate matter to organic matter?
It's not that easy to distinguish between inanimate matter and organic matter as it is. Are viruses alive?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Trump won, posted 07-16-2020 12:06 AM Trump won has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 1:07 PM ringo has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 178 of 263 (879433)
07-16-2020 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ringo
07-16-2020 12:37 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
a Servant of Christ writes:
matter sprang from nothing or proteins from nothing...
ringo writes:
Nobody is suggesting that proteins "sprang" from nothing. They developed from something that was kinda like proteins but not quite proteins. The probability of each step in the many steps is pretty high.
You haven't taken courses in organic and biochemistry, have you? You should listen to James Tour's discussion of this subject. Here's one of his presentations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU7Lww-sBPg
And your last sentence in that quote is quite an understatement.
a Servant of Christ writes:
... inanimate matter to organic matter?
ringo writes:
It's not that easy to distinguish between inanimate matter and organic matter as it is. Are viruses alive?
Viruses are replicators but need a host to do that. Do you know what the simplest self-replicating organism is and how many genes in that organism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 07-16-2020 12:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ringo, posted 07-17-2020 12:16 PM Kleinman has replied

Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 179 of 263 (879434)
07-16-2020 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Kleinman
07-16-2020 9:29 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
It is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing.
bravo, kleinman.
i've been exploring two belief-centric films, the ninth configuration and the exorcist, both creations of the great Catholic Mind of William P Blatty.
the evolutionists expect us to accept their story lock stock and barrel, without having the numbers to back it up.
i do know one thing. i was created. by a loving god. named Jesus Christ. and his name is holy, yeshua.
and by the way, the evolutionists can't figure out why humanity has love, why we sacrifice ourselves for others, it speaks against the survival of the fittest.
these are just myths and stories they tell themselves so they can ignore the reality staring them in the face:
god became man incarnate of the virgin mary
he suffered under pontius pilate died and was buried in accordance with the scriptures
he rose from the dead and is seated at the right hand of god, from where he will judge the living and the dead
his kingdom will have no end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 9:29 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 1:44 PM Trump won has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


(1)
Message 180 of 263 (879441)
07-16-2020 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Trump won
07-16-2020 1:10 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
a servant of Christ writes:
It is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing.
I think a central part of this debate is people trying to justify their atheism. Because if there is no god, there is no accountability. But if we were created, we have accountability to our Creator. Our hope is that our Creator is perfect in His justise and perfect in His mercy. The atheist does what is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their mind is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Trump won, posted 07-16-2020 1:10 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 07-16-2020 5:37 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 183 by Trump won, posted 07-17-2020 12:08 AM Kleinman has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024