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Author Topic:   What have we accomplished?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 73 of 263 (878983)
07-09-2020 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
07-08-2020 5:46 PM


Re: Airing The Arguments
Phat writes:
Honestly, I DO think that the beliefs that I have chosen to accept are quite irrational. (From the standpoint of a rational secularist).
It doesn't need the qualifier - it's just irrational.
To begin with, (and looking at it from your point of view and not mine) God Himself existing is a bit irrational.
The concept of a god that made the universe billions of years ago to my mind is the least irrational thing of your beliefs. It does at least answer the something from nothing question (though leaves the infinite regress problem wide open.)
You argue that God is a simple creation of the human mind, but I disagree and agree both. The God Who is is the Creator of all seen and unseen...including our human mind. That being said, humans can and do make up numerous gods all day every day. Just look at RPG games and some of the Sci-Fi creations on there!
Well yes.
If we get past all of that and accept that a Creator of all seen and unseen could possibly exist and being that Jesus as Gods relational character for humanity is accepted, the irrationality again starts with several questions.
No. You can not get from 'god exists' to 'Jesus is god'. That's simply an unfounded assertion.
1) Why do humans have to be forgiven? Why was rebellion and autonomy the default condition of the human heart? And I would argue that it was.
2) Why is the world going to "end"? (At least the world as we now know it...the global community of humans)
All this is just fabricated religious bunkum.
3) Why do so few people actually accept this? And why do so few people actually accept the reality of Jesus Christ?
Because it's fabricated religious bunkum.
4) And why does the Euro-Centric God(and Jesus) of Western Christianity predominate over the Eastern concepts of Karma, Mindfulness, and passive acceptance?
It doesn't. Each belief system is pure historical accident. What people believe is predicted by where they were born and who to. There is no recorded incident of someone spontaneously believing in a god they had never been taught or learnt about.
5) jar once brought up one: Why must God sacrifice His Son? If God is going to forgive, why not just blanket-forgive every human? Why do we need to surrender or give up a part of our intrinsic nature in order for this whole plot scenario to work?
Because it's religious made up bunkum.
As far as self-serving, I claim no special status.
You do, you tell us god speaks to you - how much more special can you get?
In fact, this is the one thing I dislike about Christianity---that I am called to serve rather than be served and that I am called to suffer and that indeed there may never be any special rewards for doing so.
And that too is just religious bunkum.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-08-2020 5:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 75 of 263 (878985)
07-09-2020 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
07-09-2020 3:50 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Phat writes:
What will you do when they do?
That's easy. If the facts change I'll change my mind.
Im already predicting that the science minded skeptics will attempt to explain all of them away since, in their esteemed world view, such things simply do not happen.
I don't think you and your kind properly understand science. Well actually I know you don't.
If there came a sudden, worldwide, widespread and inexplicable rash of miraculous events, science would attempt to find explanations. But real miracles - by definition - can not be explained by natural causes so science would have nothing to say about them except that it can't explain them. A few million people crawling back out of their graves would do it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-09-2020 3:50 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Kleinman, posted 07-09-2020 9:47 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 82 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2020 1:04 AM Tangle has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 181 of 263 (879462)
07-16-2020 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Kleinman
07-16-2020 1:44 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
kleinman writes:
I think a central part of this debate is people trying to justify their atheism.
To whom am I justifying my atheism and why do you think it necessary for me to do so?
Because if there is no god, there is no accountability.
Really, trying hitting policeman, see what happens.
But if we were created, we have accountability to our Creator.
Why? Is a cockroach? A buttercup?
Our hope is that our Creator is perfect in His justise and perfect in His mercy.
Fat chance, according to your book he's an evil bastard that makes Pol Pot look like an amateur.
The atheist does what is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their mind is.
Have you ever met an atheist? Where is this garbage coming from? Show your workings.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 1:44 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 6:36 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 184 of 263 (879491)
07-17-2020 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Kleinman
07-16-2020 6:36 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
kleinman writes:
You can start with yourself.
I did that many years ago. So is that all?
There are people murdering policemen now and don't think they will be held account, unless they are caught.
Well you've accidentally hit upon the point haven't you? If you get caught hitting a policeman, you'll be held to account. If not, you got lucky, society will get you the next time. People account to themselves and society for their actions. There is no other body.
Don't you think you have more choices than a cockroach or a buttercup?
Why is anything responsible to its maker? Any faults in the maker's product are down to the maker.
Why? Because He tells you not to murder, steal, commit adultery?
And yet he commits acts of mass genocide and tell us to do the same.
Then He pays the cost of yours and my accountability?
Well he has no need to on my account, but why and how does he do it on yours?
Sure, and they think that whatever they do is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their minds are.
Liar. You've never even spoken to one have you?
And I am showing you how evolution works including a mathematical explanation and empirical evidence. It really upsets atheists when they hear this.
Look kleinman, nutters like you that think that they know better than all of science but can't get their ideas accepted by real scientists pass through here all the time. We listen for a while, make an evaluation and then most of us walk away. There's nothing much to be done with a delusion.
No matter what you think of yourself, you can't upset an atheist by spouting such nonsense. The best you can hope for is a mild depression for the poverty of the human religious mind.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Kleinman, posted 07-16-2020 6:36 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 6:03 AM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 186 of 263 (879499)
07-17-2020 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Kleinman
07-17-2020 6:03 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
kleinman writes:
It didn't take much.
And you know that how?
You are certainly sure of yourself.
I'm certainly sure that's what actually happens. I'm also sure that you have not contradicted it.
First you say "there is no other body"
Sure, I'll say it again just in case you thought I didn't mean it. There is no other body.
and then you say "any faults in the maker's product are down to the maker". So if you use a product in a way it wasn't intended, it's the maker's fault?
And what is your problem with that? If your chair arrives with only 2 legs do you blame yourslf or who made it?
God even uses the wicked to do his will. But not every act of mass genocide is God's will.
Sorry, you can't slime your way out of what it actually says god himself did in your book. Just to name just one genocide - The Flood.
And the price for sin is blood.
Childish nonsense.
What real scientists? Are you talking about the fish-to-mammal aficionados that can't explain the simplest evolution experiments? I certainly know more about evolution than them. It doesn't take much.
If that was actually the case you wouldn't be wasting your time here now would you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 6:03 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 9:20 AM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 189 of 263 (879511)
07-17-2020 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Kleinman
07-17-2020 9:20 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
kleinman writes:
It's not hard to tell how little you know about the science of evolution. You have lots of mythical stories, just no math or physics.
You really are a one-trick pony aren't you. We are not talking about evolution, we're talking about atheism. Remember?
Does that mean you are ready to explain the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments? Let's see you do that with your mythology about Kiwi birds.
ditto above.
kleinman writes:
For someone so certain on this issue, you aren't doing such a good job explaining the science of evolution. And we have good experimental evidence for that issue. So, when are you going to put the wisdom of the universe to work and explain to us the physics and mathematics of evolution?
And again. Discussions about atheism and whether there is a supernatural judge have nothing to do with evolution.
Why are you avoiding defending your statements?
First you say that there is no God and then you blame the evil in the universe on that God. Maybe the people who do evil should be held to account for that evil. And now you claim that the God that doesn't exist produces manufacturing defects. You really don't want to be held account for the defects you produce, whether they are in manufacturing a chair or explaining evolution.
I mean, am I supposed to not notice that you're trying to change the subject? Really?
So you think that talking with atheists is a waste of time?
That's not something you've ever done or will ever do. If you actually did, you might learn something. The starting point is that atheism has nothing to do with evolution.
So, when are you going to explain the Kishony and Lenski evolution experiments. Why don't you use your mythology about Kiwi birds to explain those experiments?
Why don't you stop trying to change the subject?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Kleinman, posted 07-17-2020 9:20 AM Kleinman has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 203 of 263 (879555)
07-18-2020 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Trump won
07-17-2020 11:43 PM


SoC writes:
kleinman has 11 published papers, and you guys talk to him like he's a tin-foil hat. no wonder the discourse on this site is stale.
This is an anonymous web site, we have no idea who the guy called 'kleinman' here is.
Secondly, he IS a crackpot. Now that wouldn't matter if what he was saying about the maths was right - Newton was bonkers but he could do sums - but he isn't.
The fact that he's here at all - on an amateur web site with people like you on it talking total crap - instead of talking to people in his field should tell you that he's a crank.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Trump won, posted 07-17-2020 11:43 PM Trump won has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 8:14 AM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 211 of 263 (879567)
07-18-2020 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 8:14 AM


kleinman writes:
And weren't you the one who claimed to be a scientist, you liar?
No, that would be another one of your many errors. I'm not a scientist though I do have a couple of science degrees, one post grad. I have published in another non-related discipline; my other post-grad degree.
So now that we're finished measuring dicks and just so you don't feel like you have to say it again, I will not be commenting on your mathematics. It's not my subject, though your absurd misunderstandings of very basic probability are visible even to me.
But I'm very happy to put you right on gods, beliefs and atheism - the actual reason you're here and a subject you keep poking your nose out on before pulling it right back behind your little mathematical smokescreen.
How about you get out of your closet and discuss your real agenda?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 8:14 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 9:56 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 213 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2020 11:51 AM Tangle has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 215 of 263 (879573)
07-18-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 9:56 AM


kleinman writes:
Prove it or just continue to be the liar you are.
What a model Christian you are; such a role model. I'm sure your god is pleased with you.
Anytime you wish to talk about your beliefs, just post away, meanwhile I'll leave you to your sums.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 9:56 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 12:52 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 223 of 263 (879591)
07-18-2020 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 12:52 PM


kleinman writes:
I'd post more about math and physics but you were not indoctrinated into those scientific disciplines.
You're very fond of making assertions about things on which you have no information aren't you?
retreat back into your pseudo-scientific delusional world that you use to justify your atheism.
I'm here, anytime you want to come out from behind your plastic abacus and talk about what you're really here for. Don't be shy, we've seen it all before.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 12:52 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 3:58 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 225 of 263 (879594)
07-18-2020 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 3:58 PM


kleinman writes:
Don't confuse your delusions with actually seeing things. You fish-to-mammals aficionados definitely haven't presented the correct mathematics for the Kishony and Lenski experiments. And actually, my abacus is made primarily from silicon. And what it says is your notion of fish evolving into mammals is mathematically irrational. What's worse is that your delusions contribute to drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments. You should really stop indoctrinating naive school children with your mathematically irrational mythology. It is harming people. Can't any of you atheists do math?
Like I say, anytime you're ready, let's start talking about your faith and my atheism. Stop hiding.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 3:58 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 5:11 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 227 of 263 (879600)
07-18-2020 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 5:11 PM


kleinman writes:
Your faith is blind. Worse than that, your faith is delusional and harmful.
Well ok, that's a start of sorts.
Can you tell me what my faith is? Try not to make assertions based on no knowledge if you can and if you can't, give it your best shot.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 5:11 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 5:38 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 229 of 263 (879602)
07-18-2020 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 5:38 PM


kleinman writes:
Sure, I've said it many times. In your faith, you believe that fish evolve into mammals
That's not a great start; that's neither my faith nor my belief, nor is it relevant to what I may or may not believe.
Maybe it's better if you talk about what you actually know. How about what it is that you believe and see if you can do it without mentioning evolution or - I know this is hard for you - maths.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 5:38 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 6:04 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 231 of 263 (879605)
07-18-2020 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 6:04 PM


kleinman writes:
Oh? So you don't believe that fish evolve into mammals?
Of course not, that's not a matter of belief.
My faith tells us to count, that is math. Are you telling us that your faith says you shouldn't count?
Maths is not a faith kleinman.
That's explains why I find it so hard to believe you when you say you are a scientist.
I'm not a scientist kleinman, I've told you this three times now.
Can you see a pattern here? You're not listening to what people say. Instead you project what you want them to have said.
But never mind all that, tell us about your faith beliefs - your religion.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 6:04 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 6:42 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 234 of 263 (879613)
07-19-2020 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Kleinman
07-18-2020 6:42 PM


kleinman writes:
What was it that you claimed? Didn't you say you had a couple of degrees in the sciences?
Having qualifications in scientific subjects does not make people scientists. I do not earn a living as a scientist.
I have, you just are not listening.
Ok, I must have missed that. I assume you are a Christian? What flavour? You appear to accept evolution as a fact at microbial level but I don't understand your position beyond that. It sounds like you're some form of creationist so you could start by telling us how old you think the earth is?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Kleinman, posted 07-18-2020 6:42 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Kleinman, posted 07-19-2020 5:54 AM Tangle has replied

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