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Author Topic:   What have we accomplished?
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 156 of 263 (879329)
07-14-2020 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by PaulK
07-14-2020 4:33 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
I certainly know what the initial condition is for the Jukes-Cantor model and I know whether it is a scalar, vector, or matrix and you don't
PaulK writes:
But you don’t know what’s wrong with your claim.
There is nothing wrong with my claim and all you can do is lie about your claim that you understand the Jukes-Cantor model. You can't even tell us whether the initial condition for the Jukes-Cantor model is a scalar, vector, or matrix. You are a very stupid liar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 4:33 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 4:59 PM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 158 of 263 (879332)
07-14-2020 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by PaulK
07-14-2020 4:59 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
There is nothing wrong with my claim
PaulK writes:
Then you don’t understand Jukes-Cantor. What’s even worse is that I already explained the problem to you. And you still don’t understand it.
You don't even know whether the initial condition for the Jukes-Cantor model is a scalar, vector, or matrix. You are a very stupid and harmful liar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 4:59 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 5:19 PM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 160 of 263 (879338)
07-14-2020 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by PaulK
07-14-2020 5:19 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
PaulK writes:
Obviously all you can do is throw abuse.
You certainly can’t handle the math
Whatever abuse I throw on you is nothing compared to the harm you fish-to-mammals aficionados cause with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments. And you should tell the peer-reviewers, editors, publishers, and librarians at the National Library of Medicine where my papers can be found that I can't handle the math. And at least I know whether the initial condition of the Jukes-Cantor model is a scalar, vector, or matrix, you big dummy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 5:19 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 11:38 PM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 163 of 263 (879346)
07-15-2020 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by PaulK
07-14-2020 11:38 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
Whatever abuse I throw on you is nothing compared to the harm you fish-to-mammals aficionados cause with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments.
PaulK writes:
So you tell worse lies. Big deal.
Now you are so stupid, you think the drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments don't occur by evolution.
Kleinman writes:
And you should tell the peer-reviewers, editors, publishers, and librarians at the National Library of Medicine where my papers can be found that I can't handle the math.
PaulK writes:
That would only be possible if they were your papers. The evidence of this thread - and the others you are participating in here - indicates that you aren’t capable of having written them.
Oh really? What evidence you moron? You are the one that doesn't know whether the initial condition for the Jukes-Cantor model is a scalar, vector, or matrix.
PaulK writes:
But if you are capable of handling the math, if you aren’t just blowing smoke let’s discuss your corrections to Jukes-Cantor. And the problems you don’t see.
So, describe the form of your model. Do you model the changes to each base as a Markov chain as Jukes Cantor does?
Earlier in our discussion, you said something that made me think you might get what the correction needs to be in the Jukes-Cantor model so that it would correctly predict the Kishony experiment. Go back and think about what you said, watch the YouTube videos that I gave links to that talk about how to do Markov chain computations, study the Wikipedia page on DNA evolution, in other words, do your own homework you silly jerk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2020 11:38 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 3:50 AM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 165 of 263 (879375)
07-15-2020 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by PaulK
07-15-2020 3:50 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
Now you are so stupid, you think the drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments don't occur by evolution.
PaulK writes:
No, I just don’t believe your accusation that evolutionary scientists are to blame. An accusation made without evidence.
Oh, you mean those evolutionary scientists that can't correctly explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments. The fish-to-mammals aficionados are having a difficult time explaining the simplest evolutionary experiments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 3:50 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 2:20 PM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 167 of 263 (879386)
07-15-2020 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by PaulK
07-15-2020 2:20 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
PaulK writes:
More evasion. You can’t describe your model because you don’t have one or know how to build one.
PaulK really has to expand his reading list beyond fossil tea-leaf reading journals and Mad magazine.
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
And coming soon to you in a real scientific journal near you, "The Kishony Experiment, a Markov Chain Process".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 2:20 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 3:05 PM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 169 of 263 (879390)
07-15-2020 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by PaulK
07-15-2020 3:05 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
PaulK writes:
I’ve read those papers. I’m not sure you have. You certainly didn’t read those web pages about the Jukes-Cantor model. Let alone any more authoritative source. Nobody writing a scientific paper relating to that model could be as ignorant of it as you were,
Which is how I know you aren’t writing a paper and don’t have a model.
But you do know that fish evolve into mammals and you are descended from bananas. Knowledge just gushes out of you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 3:05 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 3:43 PM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 171 of 263 (879404)
07-15-2020 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by PaulK
07-15-2020 3:43 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
PaulK writes:
If you had a model you could talk about it. You could show that I was wrong. But you don’t because I’m right.
(And you really think that a 2 base Jukes-Cantor would be worth worth doing and a 3 base version isn’t? Message 1891. Oh dear, oh dear.)
The 3 base version of the non-stationary Jukes-Cantor model and a mutation rate of E-9 will take over 1e26 replications (not generations, you dodo) for each successful evolutionary step (and that is not equilibrium). For a mutation rate of e-5 (about that of hiv), it will take about 1e15 replications for each evolutionary step. That's why combination therapy works for the treatment of hiv. You see, when you write the correct transition matrix for DNA evolution, you get the same results as what you get from this model:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2020 3:43 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Trump won, posted 07-16-2020 12:06 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 174 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2020 12:12 AM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 175 of 263 (879425)
07-16-2020 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Trump won
07-16-2020 12:06 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
a servant of Christ writes:
what's the computation for abiogenesis? in terms of probability, that matter sprang from nothing or proteins from nothing, inanimate matter to organic matter?
what's the probability of abiogenesis occuring and creating reality?
Those computations were done years ago. The mathematics of abiogenesis is even more irrational than the mathematics of the theory of evolution. Abiogenesis and the TOE are the dumb and dumber of the field of biology. And the fish-to-mammals aficionados think that selection makes the mathematics more rational for the TOE. The only problem is that they don't do the math.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Trump won, posted 07-16-2020 12:06 AM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Trump won, posted 07-16-2020 1:10 PM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 176 of 263 (879426)
07-16-2020 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by PaulK
07-16-2020 12:12 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
The 3 base version of the non-stationary Jukes-Cantor model and a mutation rate of E-9 will take over 1e26 replications (not generations, you dodo) for each successful evolutionary step (and that is not equilibrium).
PaulK writes:
Oh, you mean a model which requires three bases to change? In sequence? Well that isn’t very sensible. Not that the two base model would be worth doing either. Of course models of selection aren’t Jukes-Cantor or corrections of Jukes-Cantor - even if you only track one base. I’m sorry for thinking that you might at least have been considering the real problems of modelling the Kishony experiment with a Markov chain.
But there is a very sensible reason why a model that uses selection might want to track three bases and not two.
But you don’t know it because you don’t have a model and aren’t even trying to build one.
There's no point in discussing my model when the mathematically incompetent PaulK doesn't understand the Jukes-Cantor model and what is simulates physically. Since PaulK can't even tell us what the intial condition is for the Jukes-Cantor model and whether it is a scalar, vector, or matrix, (and none of the fish-to-mammals aficionados on this forum can do it as well), I guess I'll have to do it. Put your bibs on fish-to-mammals aficionados as I spoon feed you some mathematics. And remember, don't play with your food, all you do is make a mess that someone else has to clean up. So back to the Wikipedia page on Markov Chain DNA evolution models:
DNA evolution as a continuous-time Markov chain
Wikipedia writes:
Continuous-time Markov chains have the usual transition matrices which are, in addition, parameterized by time, t. Specifically, if E1, E2 ,E3, E4 are the states, then the transition matrix (P(t)=P{ij}(t)) where each individual entry, P{ij}(t) refers to the probability that state Ei will change to state Ej in time t.
Then go a little further down the page and find the paragraph titled "Deriving the dynamics of substitution" and you will find the vector equation:
E = {A,G,C,T}
where A, G, C, and T are the frequencies of the particular bases at the particular site being considered. Thus, when i=0 that is time=0, the initial condition, E0 = {A0,G0,C0,T0}. The initial condition is a vector of the frequencies of the different possible bases at the given site. Understand rubberband? Now, you of little understanding, how do you compute the state of the system when i=1, that is, how do you compute E1? Let's see if your dark mind can shed a little light on this subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2020 12:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2020 10:21 AM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 178 of 263 (879433)
07-16-2020 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ringo
07-16-2020 12:37 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
a Servant of Christ writes:
matter sprang from nothing or proteins from nothing...
ringo writes:
Nobody is suggesting that proteins "sprang" from nothing. They developed from something that was kinda like proteins but not quite proteins. The probability of each step in the many steps is pretty high.
You haven't taken courses in organic and biochemistry, have you? You should listen to James Tour's discussion of this subject. Here's one of his presentations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU7Lww-sBPg
And your last sentence in that quote is quite an understatement.
a Servant of Christ writes:
... inanimate matter to organic matter?
ringo writes:
It's not that easy to distinguish between inanimate matter and organic matter as it is. Are viruses alive?
Viruses are replicators but need a host to do that. Do you know what the simplest self-replicating organism is and how many genes in that organism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 07-16-2020 12:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ringo, posted 07-17-2020 12:16 PM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


(1)
Message 180 of 263 (879441)
07-16-2020 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Trump won
07-16-2020 1:10 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
a servant of Christ writes:
It is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing.
I think a central part of this debate is people trying to justify their atheism. Because if there is no god, there is no accountability. But if we were created, we have accountability to our Creator. Our hope is that our Creator is perfect in His justise and perfect in His mercy. The atheist does what is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their mind is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Trump won, posted 07-16-2020 1:10 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 07-16-2020 5:37 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 183 by Trump won, posted 07-17-2020 12:08 AM Kleinman has not replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 182 of 263 (879463)
07-16-2020 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Tangle
07-16-2020 5:37 PM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
I think a central part of this debate is people trying to justify their atheism.
Tangle writes:
To whom am I justifying my atheism and why do you think it necessary for me to do so?
You can start with yourself.
Kleinman writes:
Because if there is no god, there is no accountability.
Tangle writes:
Really, trying hitting policeman, see what happens.
There are people murdering policemen now and don't think they will be held account, unless they are caught.
Kleinman writes:
But if we were created, we have accountability to our Creator.
Tangle writes:
Why? Is a cockroach? A buttercup?
Don't you think you have more choices than a cockroach or a buttercup?
Kleinman writes:
Our hope is that our Creator is perfect in His justise and perfect in His mercy.
Tangle writes:
Fat chance, according to your book he's an evil bastard that makes Pol Pot look like an amateur.
Why? Because He tells you not to murder, steal, commit adultery? Then He pays the cost of yours and my accountability?
Kleinman writes:
The atheist does what is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their mind is.
Tangle writes:
Have you ever met an atheist? Where is this garbage coming from? Show your workings.
Sure, and they think that whatever they do is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their minds are. And I am showing you how evolution works including a mathematical explanation and empirical evidence. It really upsets atheists when they hear this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 07-16-2020 5:37 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2020 3:49 AM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 185 of 263 (879498)
07-17-2020 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Tangle
07-17-2020 3:49 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
You can start with yourself.
Tangle writes:
I did that many years ago. So is that all?
It didn't take much.
Kleinman writes:
There are people murdering policemen now and don't think they will be held account, unless they are caught.
Tangle writes:
Well you've accidentally hit upon the point, haven't you? If you get caught hitting a policeman, you'll be held to account. If not, you got lucky, society will get you the next time. People account to themselves and society for their actions. There is no other body.
You are certainly sure of yourself.
Kleinman writes:
Don't you think you have more choices than a cockroach or a buttercup?
Tangle writes:
Why is anything responsible to its maker? Any faults in the maker's product are down to the maker.
First you say "there is no other body" and then you say "any faults in the maker's product are down to the maker". So if you use a product in a way it wasn't intended, it's the maker's fault?
Kleinman writes:
Why? Because He tells you not to murder, steal, commit adultery?
Tangle writes:
And yet he commits acts of mass genocide and tell us to do the same.
God even uses the wicked to do his will. But not every act of mass genocide is God's will.
Kleinman writes:
Then He pays the cost of yours and my accountability?
Tangle writes:
Well he has no need to on my account, but why and how does he do it on yours?
Like I said, you are certainly sure of yourself. And the price for sin is blood.
Kleinman writes:
Sure, and they think that whatever they do is right in their own mind no matter how twisted their minds are.
Tangle writes:
Liar. You've never even spoken to one have you?
So you know everyone who I've ever spoke to? You must work for Google and have some powerful tracking software.
Kleinman writes:
And I am showing you how evolution works including a mathematical explanation and empirical evidence. It really upsets atheists when they hear this.
Tangle writes:
Look kleinman, nutters like you that think that they know better than all of science but can't get their ideas accepted by real scientists pass through here all the time. We listen for a while, make an evaluation and then most of us walk away. There's nothing much to be done with a delusion.
No matter what you think of yourself, you can't upset an atheist by spouting such nonsense. The best you can hope for is a mild depression for the poverty of the human religious mind.
What real scientists? Are you talking about the fish-to-mammal aficionados that can't explain the simplest evolution experiments? I certainly know more about evolution than them. It doesn't take much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2020 3:49 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2020 7:02 AM Kleinman has replied

Kleinman
Member (Idle past 357 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 187 of 263 (879500)
07-17-2020 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Tangle
07-17-2020 7:02 AM


Re: Self Serving Beliefs
Kleinman writes:
It didn't take much.
Tangle writes:
And you know that how?
It's not hard to tell how little you know about the science of evolution. You have lots of mythical stories, just no math or physics.
Kleinman writes:
You are certainly sure of yourself.
Tangle writes:
I'm certainly sure that's what actually happens. I'm also sure that you have not contradicted it.
Does that mean you are ready to explain the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments? Let's see you do that with your mythology about Kiwi birds.
Kleinman writes:
First you say "there is no other body"
Tangle writes:
Sure, I'll say it again just in case you thought I didn't mean it. There is no other body.
For someone so certain on this issue, you aren't doing such a good job explaining the science of evolution. And we have good experimental evidence for that issue. So, when are you going to put the wisdom of the universe to work and explain to us the physics and mathematics of evolution?
Kleinman writes:
and then you say "any faults in the maker's product are down to the maker". So if you use a product in a way it wasn't intended, it's the maker's fault?
Tangle writes:
And what is your problem with that? If your chair arrives with only 2 legs do you blame yourslf or who made it?
First you say that there is no God and then you blame the evil in the universe on that God. Maybe the people who do evil should be held to account for that evil. And now you claim that the God that doesn't exist produces manufacturing defects. You really don't want to be held account for the defects you produce, whether they are in manufacturing a chair or explaining evolution.
Kleinman writes:
God even uses the wicked to do his will. But not every act of mass genocide is God's will.
Tangle writes:
Sorry, you can't slime your way out of what it actually says god himself did in your book. Just to name just one genocide - The Flood.
In your mind, no one deserves judgment. No one ever sins. You can't even do your own job and correctly explain the science of evolution. Think of all the people who die of drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments because you don't explain evolution correctly. You have a simple explanation, the God that doesn't exist works in mysterious ways.
Kleinman writes:
And the price for sin is blood.
Tangle writes:
Childish nonsense.
Maybe so. Is that the hope you live by?
Kleinman writes:
What real scientists? Are you talking about the fish-to-mammal aficionados that can't explain the simplest evolution experiments? I certainly know more about evolution than them. It doesn't take much.
Tangle writes:
If that was actually the case you wouldn't be wasting your time here now would you?
So you think that talking with atheists is a waste of time? So, when are you going to explain the Kishony and Lenski evolution experiments. Why don't you use your mythology about Kiwi birds to explain those experiments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2020 7:02 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2020 10:45 AM Kleinman has not replied

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