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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 856 of 1444 (849395)
03-07-2019 6:58 PM


But this is all nonsense because according to the theology god created two perfect worlds, Heaven and Eden.
Why then suffer this crap?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 857 of 1444 (849412)
03-08-2019 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 855 by 1.61803
03-07-2019 5:17 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
1.61803 writes:
That's why one must accept that you can not have things like free will and then expect that someone else's choice may infringe on your freewill.
Someone is gonna get hurt. No way around it. If God exist he certainly is unable to reconcile this issue because maybe he as well is willing to accept the down side in order for us to exist as well. I dont know.
Yes - if this is the way it "must be" - then I agree.
Of course "freewill" and "someone getting hurt" are two very large ranges.
I don't see them as on/off switches.
That is - the freewill to but a t-shirt or a sweater, to vacation in Cuba or the Galapagos, to spend time with these people over those people... seems like such freewill could be contained if other freewill like wanting to kill another person or have sex without consent were removed.
As with getting hurt. I don't see why we could still stub our toes if things like sex without consent were prevented.
How could it be prevented?
Again - if it's "impossible for God" - then, fair enough, God is not all powerful and we have what we have.
But, if it's not "impossible for God" - then God is either evil (towards humans, anyway) for not creating a better world - or God doesn't exist.
And that question: Is it impossible for God or not? - is certainly a question that I'm not capable of answering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by 1.61803, posted 03-07-2019 5:17 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 858 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2019 5:33 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 858 of 1444 (849422)
03-08-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 857 by Stile
03-08-2019 8:43 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Can't pass up the opportunity.
Of course it's "impossible for God". Can't do when you don't exist.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Stile, posted 03-08-2019 8:43 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 860 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 8:56 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 859 of 1444 (879687)
07-20-2020 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by PaulK
12-07-2016 1:30 AM


Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
What if God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will break their leg? Or fall off a ciff? or commit treason? Is God responsible for any of those results? I would say no.
PaulK writes:
Why would you say no ? We can and do hold people responsible for the foreseeable consequences of their actions. Do you insist that God must be held to a lesser standard ? Why ? Surely God can live up to any standard that we would expect from a mere human.
Phat writes:
So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if we freely chose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we freely chose to be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves? Is foreknowledge itself the sticking point in these discussions
PaulK writes:
Foreknowledge - or at least a very good idea of what will happen - is an important part of it. But so is the act of creation - and not just of us, but of everything else.
Given the usual abilities attributed to God, we might rephrase your words this way:
So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if he manipulates us so that we choose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we are manipulated into being be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves just because he made us do it ?
You call all these things "free choices" but none of them are conscious choices for us. But they are God's conscious choices made before we could do anything, and which we have no power to avoid. How then can we be responsible for them, if God is not ?
Continuing... Message 551
Phat writes:
Because we have a choice to submit to God or satan.
PaulK writes:
Which, in this scenario - like all our other choices - has been dictated by God.
That is no reason at all not to hold God responsible.
My hypothetical scenario is that we humans can freely decide on our chosen course of action based on the choices available to us on any given day of our lives. The apologists tell us that God created a freewilled Lucifer who chose autonomy and rejected obedience and that this was essentially a divine set-up so as to allow free will to be expressed. One can argue that God is still ultimately responsible for this whole scenario but so what? Nobody can indict Him anyway.
Determinism would argue that we have no choice in the matter.
I say that it is irrelevant what God foreknows. Its His game anyway. We are still responsible for the choices we make on a daily basis.
ringo argues that authority is not nor should not be the best option, and that we should essentially live out our roles in this cosmic scenario just as the fallen Lucifer is doing. Something about Dad forgiving us for being rebellious and autonomous.
Yet we have already been given a cheat sheet. Jesus is the final answer. Why is this so hard to conceptualize?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2016 1:30 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2020 9:19 AM Phat has replied
 Message 862 by ringo, posted 07-20-2020 9:50 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 860 of 1444 (879688)
07-20-2020 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 858 by AZPaul3
03-08-2019 5:33 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Oh hush! Pagan.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 858 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2019 5:33 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 861 of 1444 (879689)
07-20-2020 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 859 by Phat
07-20-2020 8:54 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
quote:
My hypothetical scenario is that we humans can freely decide on our chosen course of action based on the choices available to us on any given day of our lives.
If we can freely decide to do what God has decided we are going to do (and only that) then it seems to me that God has a good deal more responsibility than we do for our decisions.
If you argue that God isn’t going to accept responsibility and is going to put all the blame on us anyway because nobody can make him do otherwise - then I’ll just point out that you are denying that God is good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 8:54 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 871 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 1:06 PM PaulK has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 862 of 1444 (879692)
07-20-2020 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 859 by Phat
07-20-2020 8:54 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
ringo argues that authority is not nor should not be the best option, and that we should essentially live out our roles in this cosmic scenario just as the fallen Lucifer is doing.
The "fallen Lucifer" thing is just made-up nonsense. You shouldn't make it such a big part of your theology. Or any part, actually.
For homework, look up how many times the name "Lucifer" appears in the Bible. The tell us whom it refers to.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 8:54 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 863 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 11:42 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 863 of 1444 (879693)
07-20-2020 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 862 by ringo
07-20-2020 9:50 AM


According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
quote:
LUCIFER
= light bringer, "the morning star": Isa 14:12 (heylel, "spreading brightness"). Symbol of the once bright but now fallen king of Babylon. The title belongs of right to Christ (Rev 22:16), therefore about to be assumed by antichrist, of whom Babylon is type and mystical Babylon the forerunner (Rev 17:4-5). The language is primarily drawn from that of Satan himself, the spirit that energized the pagan world power Babylon, that now energizes the apostate church, and shall at last energize the last secular antichrist (the fourth kingdom little horn) and his champion, the false prophet (the third kingdom little horn), the harlot's successor, who shall oppress Israel, as the fourth kingdom little horn oppresses the Gentile world: Dan 7:8-26 (Chaldee); 8:9-11 (Hebrew); Rev 13:4; 16:13-14; 2 Thess 2:9. "Lucifer" is thus naturally applied to Satan (Luke 10:18; Rev 12:8-9; Jude 6). Jesus saith, "I will give him that overcometh the morning star," i.e. Myself (Rev 2:28; 22:16); reflecting My brightness, he shall shine like Me "the morning star," sharing My kingly glory of which a star is the symbol (Num 24:17; Matt 2:2).
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998 by Biblesoft)
This dictionary is commonly used and came with my BibleSoft software. I'm sure that you will claim that it was hijacked by apologists!
So lets see what Wiki has to say:
Lucifer I understand the origin of the various mythos associated with this character, but Christianity basically needs a fallen angel in order to justify the mission of Christ. What sense would it make for God, Creator of all seen and unseen, to simply be represented by another in a long line of fallible human teachers? The fact that you never believed or were convinced of the reality of the supernatural is to your detriment. Take it from one who has witnessed supernatural manifestations.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 862 by ringo, posted 07-20-2020 9:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by ringo, posted 07-20-2020 12:21 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 864 of 1444 (879697)
07-20-2020 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 863 by Phat
07-20-2020 11:42 AM


Re: According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
Phat writes:
So lets see what Wiki has to say
I asked you what the Bible has to say.
According to my calculations, the word "Lucifer" appears ONCE in the King James Version - and has been dropped entirely by most newer translations. In Isaiah 14:12, Lucifier IS the King of Babylon, not just a symbol. Any symbolism has been made up by your apologists.
Phat writes:
Christianity basically needs a fallen angel in order to justify the mission of Christ.
What if the so-called "mission of Christ" was also made up?
Phat writes:
What sense would it make for God, Creator of all seen and unseen, to simply be represented by another in a long line of fallible human teachers?
What's the problem with that?
Phat writes:
The fact that you never believed or were convinced of the reality of the supernatural....
Stop saying that. It's a lie.
Phat writes:
Take it from one who has witnessed supernatural manifestations.
As I have told you before, I have had "experiences" too. You misinterpret them as "supernatural". I don't.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 863 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 11:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 865 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 11:51 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 865 of 1444 (879718)
07-20-2020 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by ringo
07-20-2020 12:21 PM


Re: According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
ringo writes:
Lucifier IS the King of Babylon, not just a symbol. Any symbolism has been made up by your apologists.
Utter nonsense. Apologists dont simply make stuff up any more than you can naively and blindly claim that Lucifer is only the King of Babylon. Babylon means confusion and todays world fits that definition. Lucifer is clearly a spirit of pride, autonomy, and power. It is a jealous spirit and seeks to be the focus of self exultation and quite literally the vibe behind all that's wrong with humans in the world today.
You can fall back on your positions that vilify apologists, but you will find that your so-called literal "common sense" readings into who and what Lucifer is is itself deceptive, misleading, and a disservice to those who seek to know the truth behind human nature.
And your insistence on throwing away the entire concept of an evil spirit is itself inspired by the same evil spirit which you deny.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by ringo, posted 07-20-2020 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 9:49 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 866 of 1444 (879732)
07-21-2020 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 865 by Phat
07-20-2020 11:51 PM


Re: According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
Phat writes:
Apologists dont simply make stuff up any more than you can naively and blindly claim that Lucifer is only the King of Babylon.
There's nothing naive about it. It's what the Bible says. The whole story of Lucifer is made up. The apologist stories about a powerful Satan/Lucifer/etc. are totally incompatable with an omniscient God. They're not only made up, they're an insult to God.
Phat writes:
Babylon means confusion...
Babylon means Babylon. Sometimes you guys are not literal enough.
Phat writes:
... and todays world fits that definition.
Isaiah wasn't talking about today's world. Don't be so egocentric.
Phat writes:
Lucifer is clearly a spirit of pride, autonomy, and power. It is a jealous spirit and seeks to be the focus of self exultation and quite literally the vibe behind all that's wrong with humans in the world today.
And that's clearly a human attruibute that needs no external spook to foster it. Don't try to shift the blame for your own shortcomings onto a fictional character.
Phat writes:
You can fall back on your positions that vilify apologists, but you will find that your so-called literal "common sense" readings into who and what Lucifer is is itself deceptive, misleading, and a disservice to those who seek to know the truth behind human nature.
You're not interested in the truth. You're afraid to discuss the apologists. Save your insults untill you can actually defend what those liars say.
Phat writes:
And your insistence on throwing away the entire concept of an evil spirit is itself inspired by the same evil spirit which you deny.
That "spirit" is not consistent with an omniscient God.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 865 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 11:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 867 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 10:09 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 867 of 1444 (879739)
07-21-2020 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 866 by ringo
07-21-2020 9:49 AM


Re: According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
ringo writes:
That "spirit" is not consistent with an omniscient God.
We've been down this rabbit trail before! Your basic argument is that God had no reason to "create" or allow an attractive nuisence such as the Tree of Knowledge in the garden without thus becoming fully responsible for any collateral damage that said tree may cause. So I'll give you that one. Blame God! It matters not. The issue is as you quoted above, being that a "spirit" such as what satan would hypothetically have is inconsistent with an omniscient God. Which I agree with.
You scold me for adopting the good/evil cosmic battle as part of my Theology...but Jesus is more than simply a good humanist. And humans are doomed to repeat their errors if they refuse to understand the mental/spiritual state that gets them in trouble.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 866 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 9:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 868 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 10:19 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 868 of 1444 (879741)
07-21-2020 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 867 by Phat
07-21-2020 10:09 AM


Re: According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
Phat writes:
The issue is as you quoted above, being that a "spirit" such as what satan would hypothetically have is inconsistent with an omniscient God. Which I agree with.
So which is it? Is God omniscient? Or does Satan exist?
Phat writes:
Jesus is more than simply a good humanist.
You keep saying that but you never back it up.
Phat writes:
And humans are doomed to repeat their errors if they refuse to understand the mental/spiritual state that gets them in trouble.
That mental state has nothing to do with any Satan - or Jesus, for that matter. And believers don't demonstrate an understanding greater than unbelievers.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 867 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 10:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 869 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 12:40 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 869 of 1444 (879745)
07-21-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 868 by ringo
07-21-2020 10:19 AM


Re: According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
ringo writes:
So which is it? Is God omniscient? Or does Satan exist?
Why must it be one or the other? Simply because God is all-knowing does not necessitate satans non-existence.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 868 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 10:19 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 870 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 12:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 870 of 1444 (879746)
07-21-2020 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 869 by Phat
07-21-2020 12:40 PM


Re: According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
Phat writes:
Why must it be one or the other?
I thought you agree that they are incompatible.
Phat writes:
Simply because God is all-knowing does not necessitate satans non-existence.
It makes Satan irrelevant. If God is all-knowing, He's responsible for evil. Satan may be his tool (see Job), though that would be unnecessary too if God was omnipotent. But Satan can't be the super-villain that you make him out to be.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 869 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 12:40 PM Phat has not replied

  
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