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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Phat
Member
Posts: 14291
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 436 of 462 (879738)
07-21-2020 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 435 by PaulK
07-21-2020 9:52 AM


Re: Sizing Up Dennett
Duly noted.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 9:52 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Base12
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Joined: 07-12-2020


Message 437 of 462 (880523)
08-07-2020 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
01-13-2007 6:10 PM


The Trinity is explained in this verse...

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

The Trinity or Godhead is what things are made of.

That's what the verse says, and that what I believe.

What are things made of that consist of three components?

Atoms. Simple.

Not sure why this is even a debate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 01-13-2007 6:10 PM sidelined has not yet responded

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 133
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 438 of 462 (880528)
08-07-2020 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by ringo
07-21-2020 9:28 AM


Re: Sizing Up Dennett
I have told you many times that I would gladly believe if there was any reason to believe.

In order to believe in the nature of Trinity, you must first believe that there is a single God. Do you believe that? Let's make it easier, are you willing to accept the assumption that there is a God? This is serious. Once you accept the assumption, then you can not negate it in any of your later argument.

Are you willing to accept the assumption that there is ONE God, and ONLY ONE God?

Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 9:28 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 9:45 AM Juvenissun has responded
 Message 444 by ringo, posted 08-07-2020 1:02 PM Juvenissun has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14291
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 439 of 462 (880533)
08-07-2020 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 438 by Juvenissun
08-07-2020 8:00 AM


Topic Synopsis
ringo writes:

I have told you many times that I would gladly believe if there was any reason to believe.

This brings up a good point. For many people there seems to be no reason to believe in what they would conclude to be un-evidenced fantasies and tales of mythos.

The only thing that stumps me there is the claim that they used to believe and now don't. This seems to only be possible if one values objective evidence and rationality over their belief. I would maintain that there is not a lot of objective evidence either way...and that it is far from conclusive.

You, on the other hand, have told me many times that you will never give up your beliefs.
Lets just say that I do not take them tentatively or casually as if I were judging my thought process and belief paradigm with the scientific method. When I initially got saved, it was no small matter.

Base12 writes:

The Trinity or Godhead is what things are made of.

That's what the verse says, and that what I believe.

What are things made of that consist of three components?

Atoms. Simple.

Not sure why this is even a debate.

Ahhhh a newcomer. Welcome to EvC. If I may, allow me to brief you.

You seem puzzled why this is a "debate". Might I ask you what else it could possibly be? The art of discussion and debate is an old and honorable one. May I ask you why you joined? Don't you want to be challenged? Also...it is my understanding that for the Trinity to be what things are made of rather than a vehicle through which they are made implies Pantheism over Trinitarian Monotheistic Creationism. Does that make sense?

Juvenissun, addressing ringo writes:

In order to believe in the nature of Trinity, you must first believe that there is a single God. Do you believe that? Let's make it easier, are you willing to accept the assumption that there is a God? This is serious. Once you accept the assumption, then you can not negate it in any of your later argument.

Are you willing to accept the assumption that there is ONE God, and ONLY ONE God?

I do. ringo likely believes that there is no "evidence" of any gods. He believes in human potential as the only thing that really matters and that we can test and measure.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Juvenissun, posted 08-07-2020 8:00 AM Juvenissun has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Juvenissun, posted 08-07-2020 10:09 AM Phat has responded
 Message 442 by ringo, posted 08-07-2020 12:48 PM Phat has responded

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 133
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 440 of 462 (880538)
08-07-2020 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by Phat
08-07-2020 9:45 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
ringo likely believes that there is no "evidence" of any gods. He believes in human potential as the only thing that really matters and that we can test and measure.

In order to argue about anything related to God, one first NEEDS to assume that there is a God. Otherwise, where is the base for any follow-up argument?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 9:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 10:17 AM Juvenissun has responded
 Message 443 by ringo, posted 08-07-2020 12:49 PM Juvenissun has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14291
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 441 of 462 (880539)
08-07-2020 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by Juvenissun
08-07-2020 10:09 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
In order to argue about anything related to God, one first NEEDS to assume that there is a God. Otherwise, where is the base for any follow-up argument?
Based on that premise, no atheist/agnostic or adherent of any other religion can argue in any way about God. Assuming that you and I knew that God is One and that He is Trinitarian Monotheistic, we would still be challenged to argue anything apart from what we intuitively believed. I happen to believe that Everyone on the planet knows *about* God. They know the version that a majority of we Christians believe is real. Why are they disqualified from asking questions? Sarah Bellum and I are just getting warmed up.

But lets focus on you and I. Do you know what God would say were it He and I?

Discuss.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Juvenissun, posted 08-07-2020 10:09 AM Juvenissun has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Juvenissun, posted 08-07-2020 2:19 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 442 of 462 (880551)
08-07-2020 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by Phat
08-07-2020 9:45 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

This seems to only be possible if one values objective evidence and rationality over their belief.


Well DUH.

Evidence and reality ALWAYS trump belief. Always, always, always.

Phat writes:

ringo likely believes that there is no "evidence" of any gods.


That's where your problem is. I don't believe that there is any more evidence for YOUR god than there is for any other god. YOU believe there is no evidence for the other gods. You just need to catch up by one god.

Phat writes:

He believes in human potential as the only thing that really matters and that we can test and measure.


WRONG - as i have told you many times. Do you read my posts at all?

I believe that human potential is all we have. Even if it's only a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10, it's all we have. Christians are living proof of that.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 9:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 4:18 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 443 of 462 (880552)
08-07-2020 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Juvenissun
08-07-2020 10:09 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Juvenissun writes:

In order to argue about anything related to God, one first NEEDS to assume that there is a God.


Obviously not. We can argue about Frodo without assuming that Frodo exists.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Juvenissun, posted 08-07-2020 10:09 AM Juvenissun has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Juvenissun, posted 08-07-2020 2:16 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 444 of 462 (880556)
08-07-2020 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Juvenissun
08-07-2020 8:00 AM


Re: Sizing Up Dennett
Juvenissun writes:

In order to believe in the nature of Trinity, you must first believe that there is a single God.


Your premise is false. It is certainly possible to discuss the nature odf a fictional entity, such as Frodo.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Juvenissun, posted 08-07-2020 8:00 AM Juvenissun has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 4:09 PM ringo has responded

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 133
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 445 of 462 (880559)
08-07-2020 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by ringo
08-07-2020 12:49 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Obviously not. We can argue about Frodo without assuming that Frodo exists.

That is true. But in this Trinity issue, the question is NOT if God exists, but is "Is God one or three"?.

Do you see God is already assumed to exist in the question? If you say: God does not exist. Then you can leave this thread alone.

If you want to explore the Trinity, then you MUST assume at least one God exists. Can you see what you have to deal with in this issue is a logic question, not a theological question?

You assume God exists, then we can talk about Trinity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by ringo, posted 08-07-2020 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by ringo, posted 08-07-2020 9:26 PM Juvenissun has responded

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 133
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 446 of 462 (880560)
08-07-2020 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Phat
08-07-2020 10:17 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Do you know what God would say were it He and I?

Sorry, I did not read early postings. I do not understand the question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 10:17 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 4:04 PM Juvenissun has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14291
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 447 of 462 (880566)
08-07-2020 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Juvenissun
08-07-2020 2:19 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Basically I am asking if you as a believer can speak on behalf of God. Critics despise apologists because they claim that apologists make up random stuff and in essence claim to speak on Gods behalf. Philosophically I see no reason why you can't. Scientifically is another issue, however. Science is science and is based on testable logic. Even if God could change the rules of logic, it does not appear that He does so.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Juvenissun, posted 08-07-2020 2:19 PM Juvenissun has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2020 4:18 PM Phat has responded
 Message 452 by Juvenissun, posted 08-07-2020 6:43 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14291
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 448 of 462 (880567)
08-07-2020 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by ringo
08-07-2020 1:02 PM


Sizing Up Deities
ringo writes:

It is certainly possible to discuss the nature of a fictional entity, such as Frodo.

Or a talking snake. But the apologists all agreed that the snake lied because the snake is equivalent to Satan who is the Father of lies. To assert that the snake tells the truth throws a whole plot twist into the definition of the character. None of us wrote the book, but I suppose we have the freedom to our own interpretations of the book. One problem, however, is if God Himself is a fictional entity there is no absolute truth nor is any Deity any holier than any other. Relativism is a plot of Satan. You cant have a heaven full of independent thinkers when it comes to who is in charge or who is truth personified.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by ringo, posted 08-07-2020 1:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by ringo, posted 08-07-2020 9:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 449 of 462 (880568)
08-07-2020 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
08-07-2020 4:04 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

Philosophically I see no reason why you can't.

That's because you have no idea what philosophy is.
In you're world it seems to be just making shit up because you like the sound of it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 4:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 4:22 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14291
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 450 of 462 (880569)
08-07-2020 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by ringo
08-07-2020 12:48 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
What color is the sky in YOUR world?
Evidence and reality ALWAYS trump belief. Always, always, always.
So what do you do if God is reality and yet is by nature UN evidenced to some?
I don't believe that there is any more evidence for YOUR god than there is for any other god
You make it seem as if gods are a dime a dozen. I am talking about the Creator of all seen and unseen. The reality that is without objective evidence. Do you have a plausible substitute for such a position? I suppose we could personify the universe. Or glibly claim that "In The Beginning...chemicals" makes anywhere near as much sense. But lets not.

Instead of challenging everything with a counterpoint, perhaps you could explain why the points I make are PRATTs.
Point 1: There is One God, Creator of all seen and unseen. Apart from whining about no evidence, do you have any other reason to prefer chemicals as the beginning of everything we know? And where did they come from?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by ringo, posted 08-07-2020 12:48 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by ringo, posted 08-07-2020 9:50 PM Phat has responded

  
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