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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 859 of 1444 (879687)
07-20-2020 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by PaulK
12-07-2016 1:30 AM


Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
What if God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will break their leg? Or fall off a ciff? or commit treason? Is God responsible for any of those results? I would say no.
PaulK writes:
Why would you say no ? We can and do hold people responsible for the foreseeable consequences of their actions. Do you insist that God must be held to a lesser standard ? Why ? Surely God can live up to any standard that we would expect from a mere human.
Phat writes:
So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if we freely chose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we freely chose to be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves? Is foreknowledge itself the sticking point in these discussions
PaulK writes:
Foreknowledge - or at least a very good idea of what will happen - is an important part of it. But so is the act of creation - and not just of us, but of everything else.
Given the usual abilities attributed to God, we might rephrase your words this way:
So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if he manipulates us so that we choose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we are manipulated into being be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves just because he made us do it ?
You call all these things "free choices" but none of them are conscious choices for us. But they are God's conscious choices made before we could do anything, and which we have no power to avoid. How then can we be responsible for them, if God is not ?
Continuing... Message 551
Phat writes:
Because we have a choice to submit to God or satan.
PaulK writes:
Which, in this scenario - like all our other choices - has been dictated by God.
That is no reason at all not to hold God responsible.
My hypothetical scenario is that we humans can freely decide on our chosen course of action based on the choices available to us on any given day of our lives. The apologists tell us that God created a freewilled Lucifer who chose autonomy and rejected obedience and that this was essentially a divine set-up so as to allow free will to be expressed. One can argue that God is still ultimately responsible for this whole scenario but so what? Nobody can indict Him anyway.
Determinism would argue that we have no choice in the matter.
I say that it is irrelevant what God foreknows. Its His game anyway. We are still responsible for the choices we make on a daily basis.
ringo argues that authority is not nor should not be the best option, and that we should essentially live out our roles in this cosmic scenario just as the fallen Lucifer is doing. Something about Dad forgiving us for being rebellious and autonomous.
Yet we have already been given a cheat sheet. Jesus is the final answer. Why is this so hard to conceptualize?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2016 1:30 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2020 9:19 AM Phat has replied
 Message 862 by ringo, posted 07-20-2020 9:50 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 860 of 1444 (879688)
07-20-2020 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 858 by AZPaul3
03-08-2019 5:33 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Oh hush! Pagan.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 858 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2019 5:33 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 863 of 1444 (879693)
07-20-2020 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 862 by ringo
07-20-2020 9:50 AM


According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
quote:
LUCIFER
= light bringer, "the morning star": Isa 14:12 (heylel, "spreading brightness"). Symbol of the once bright but now fallen king of Babylon. The title belongs of right to Christ (Rev 22:16), therefore about to be assumed by antichrist, of whom Babylon is type and mystical Babylon the forerunner (Rev 17:4-5). The language is primarily drawn from that of Satan himself, the spirit that energized the pagan world power Babylon, that now energizes the apostate church, and shall at last energize the last secular antichrist (the fourth kingdom little horn) and his champion, the false prophet (the third kingdom little horn), the harlot's successor, who shall oppress Israel, as the fourth kingdom little horn oppresses the Gentile world: Dan 7:8-26 (Chaldee); 8:9-11 (Hebrew); Rev 13:4; 16:13-14; 2 Thess 2:9. "Lucifer" is thus naturally applied to Satan (Luke 10:18; Rev 12:8-9; Jude 6). Jesus saith, "I will give him that overcometh the morning star," i.e. Myself (Rev 2:28; 22:16); reflecting My brightness, he shall shine like Me "the morning star," sharing My kingly glory of which a star is the symbol (Num 24:17; Matt 2:2).
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998 by Biblesoft)
This dictionary is commonly used and came with my BibleSoft software. I'm sure that you will claim that it was hijacked by apologists!
So lets see what Wiki has to say:
Lucifer I understand the origin of the various mythos associated with this character, but Christianity basically needs a fallen angel in order to justify the mission of Christ. What sense would it make for God, Creator of all seen and unseen, to simply be represented by another in a long line of fallible human teachers? The fact that you never believed or were convinced of the reality of the supernatural is to your detriment. Take it from one who has witnessed supernatural manifestations.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 862 by ringo, posted 07-20-2020 9:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by ringo, posted 07-20-2020 12:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 865 of 1444 (879718)
07-20-2020 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by ringo
07-20-2020 12:21 PM


Re: According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
ringo writes:
Lucifier IS the King of Babylon, not just a symbol. Any symbolism has been made up by your apologists.
Utter nonsense. Apologists dont simply make stuff up any more than you can naively and blindly claim that Lucifer is only the King of Babylon. Babylon means confusion and todays world fits that definition. Lucifer is clearly a spirit of pride, autonomy, and power. It is a jealous spirit and seeks to be the focus of self exultation and quite literally the vibe behind all that's wrong with humans in the world today.
You can fall back on your positions that vilify apologists, but you will find that your so-called literal "common sense" readings into who and what Lucifer is is itself deceptive, misleading, and a disservice to those who seek to know the truth behind human nature.
And your insistence on throwing away the entire concept of an evil spirit is itself inspired by the same evil spirit which you deny.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by ringo, posted 07-20-2020 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 9:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 867 of 1444 (879739)
07-21-2020 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 866 by ringo
07-21-2020 9:49 AM


Re: According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
ringo writes:
That "spirit" is not consistent with an omniscient God.
We've been down this rabbit trail before! Your basic argument is that God had no reason to "create" or allow an attractive nuisence such as the Tree of Knowledge in the garden without thus becoming fully responsible for any collateral damage that said tree may cause. So I'll give you that one. Blame God! It matters not. The issue is as you quoted above, being that a "spirit" such as what satan would hypothetically have is inconsistent with an omniscient God. Which I agree with.
You scold me for adopting the good/evil cosmic battle as part of my Theology...but Jesus is more than simply a good humanist. And humans are doomed to repeat their errors if they refuse to understand the mental/spiritual state that gets them in trouble.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 866 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 9:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 868 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 10:19 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 869 of 1444 (879745)
07-21-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 868 by ringo
07-21-2020 10:19 AM


Re: According To Fausset's Bible Dictionary
ringo writes:
So which is it? Is God omniscient? Or does Satan exist?
Why must it be one or the other? Simply because God is all-knowing does not necessitate satans non-existence.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 868 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 10:19 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 870 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 12:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 871 of 1444 (879747)
07-21-2020 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by PaulK
07-20-2020 9:19 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
PaulK writes:
If we can freely decide to do what God has decided we are going to do (and only that) then it seems to me that God has a good deal more responsibility than we do for our decisions.
This smacks of determinism. We can freely choose to do whatever there is available for us to do. We can feed a bird. Or a homeless man. We can protest government stupidity or excesses of power. We can ignore our family. We can shoot someone.
According to apologetic logic, God allowed an adversary to exist. This adversary is in the angelic class. Don't ask me about the classifications...I will admit that some dogma and myth's sound a bit unnecessary and outlandish. Tangle is a sane one for choosing realism and empiricism, but he insults the many people who have chosen to believe the old stories.
And you may ask why an otherwise intelligent man such as myself chose to believe? My answer, among others, is that I initially wanted a God to exist--but on my terms.My Dad and his generous wallet were sufficient for me in the early years---as I was just simply growing up, exploring reality, and planning an optimistic and successful future. Later, I felt dissatisfied with life and with the way that things were going in the world. Had I grown up today I would have felt even more this way. The real reason that I decided to believe is that I experienced confirmation several times.
PaulK writes:
If you argue that God isn’t going to accept responsibility and is going to put all the blame on us anyway because nobody can make him do otherwise - then I’ll just point out that you are denying that God is good.
I don't think God is blaming humans.He knew that part of the reality of our creation and survival would involve free choice and a spiritual struggle. He allowed the struggle because, as far as I can reason, he had to allow the possibility of autonomy (and rebellion) against Him to exist. It had to be a definite choice.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2020 9:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 872 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 1:26 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 873 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 3:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 874 of 1444 (879751)
07-21-2020 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 873 by Sarah Bellum
07-21-2020 3:07 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Nobody said that God was the "victim" of unforeseen circumstances. Do you honestly think that Jesus was Plan B? Jesus was Plan A from the beginning.
Therefore you, the descendant of the original "build" back in the garden of Eden, will do as the builder foresaw you would. You have no autonomy.
I have the choice to choose autonomy or communion. Even if God somehow foreknew my choice is itself irrelevant to me. And even if I end up accepting your argument that Gods foreknowledge eliminates any choice in the matter, what problem would *you* never mind I have with such a life?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 3:07 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 875 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 3:32 PM Phat has replied
 Message 876 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 3:43 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 877 of 1444 (879757)
07-21-2020 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by Sarah Bellum
07-21-2020 3:43 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Sarah Bellum writes:
If an omniscient god (allegedly) created a universe that ticks away like a perfect clockwork, then, in answer to the topic, there is no free will.
I would argue that within that framework, we can decide to acknowledge and obey or we can decide to ignore and be autonomous or as some would say humanists and responsible for our daily decisions.
And I might add there is no reason we cannot borrow from both extremes.
As far as true Free Will, such as the ability to re-imagine the universe in our image, I would say no---we do not have that kind of free will.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 3:43 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 878 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 4:22 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 879 of 1444 (879763)
07-21-2020 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 878 by Sarah Bellum
07-21-2020 4:22 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
So you see us as characters in a book? Interesting concept. But what if we co-authored the book with God? We essentially became the decisions we made.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 4:22 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 892 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-22-2020 1:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 880 of 1444 (879764)
07-21-2020 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 875 by PaulK
07-21-2020 3:32 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
PaulK writes:
Then the Fall was also part of Plan A from the beginning. Calvinists believe that, but a lot of other Christians insist otherwise...
To me it makes logical sense that the "Fall" was originally anticipated. jar of course thinks its all silly and that the "Fall" was an apologetic marketing scam and I never can counter his arguments---he basically thinks all apologists are dishonest.
Of course I can and do stick by my guns regarding the basic scenario which I feel is most likely. Granted it is not plainly supportable using the Bible alone, though most apologists run with it--and I think that they feel or believe that some of us have a connection and insight into Gods plan based on our communion through the Spirit. Which opens up a whole nother can o worms as many critics claim that the Bible plainlyu says what it says and can be as easily interpreted by an atheist scholar as it can by an "enlightened" one. So here we are.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 875 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 3:32 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 881 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 11:59 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 882 of 1444 (879767)
07-22-2020 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 881 by PaulK
07-21-2020 11:59 PM


Yetzer Ha Tov & Yetzer Ha Ra
quote:
OXFORD REFERENCE
Yetzer Ha-Tov and Yetzer Ha-Ra
‘The good inclination and the evil inclination.’ In the typical Rabbinic doctrine, with far-reaching consequences in Jewish religious thought, every human being has two inclinations or instincts, one pulling upwards, the other downwards. These are the ‘good inclination’yetzer ha-tovand the ‘evil inclination’yetzer ha-ra. The ‘evil inclination’ is frequently identified in the Rabbinic literature and elsewhere with the sex instinct but the term also denotes physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition.
Although it is called the ‘evil inclination’, because it can easily lead to wrongdoing, it really denotes more the propensity towards evil rather than something evil in itself. Indeed, in the Rabbinic scheme, the ‘evil inclination’ provides human life with its driving power and as such is essential to human life. As a well-known Mid rash (Genesis Rabbah 9: 7) puts it, were it not for the ‘evil inclination’ no one would build a house or have children or engage in commerce. This is why, according to the Mid rash, Scripture says: ‘And God saw everything that he had made and behold, it was very good’ (Genesis 1: 31). ‘Good’ refers to the ‘good inclination’, ‘very good’ to the ‘evil inclination’. It is not too far-fetched to read into this homily the idea that life without the driving force of the ‘evil inclination’ would no doubt still be good but it would be a colorless, un-creative, pallid kind of good. That which makes life ‘very good’ is the human capacity to struggle against the environment and this is impossible without egotistic as well as altruistic, aggressive as well as peaceful, instincts.
The Rabbinic view is, then, realistic. Human beings are engaged in a constant struggle against their propensity for evil but if they so desire they can keep it under control. The means of control are provided by the Torah and the precepts. One of the most remarkable Rabbinic passages in this connection states that the Torah is the antidote to the poison of the ‘evil inclination’ (Kiddushin 30b). The meaning appears to be that when the Torah is studied and when there is submission to its discipline, morbid guilt-feelings are banished and life is no longer clouded by the fear that the ‘evil inclination’ will bring about one's ruination. The parable told in this passage is of a king who struck his son, later urging the son to keep a plaster on the wound. While the plaster remains on the wound the prince may eat and drink whatever he desires without coming to harm. Only if the plaster is removed will the wound fester when the prince indulges his appetites. God has ‘wounded’ man by creating him with the ‘evil inclination’. But the Torah is the plaster on the wound, which prevents it from festering and enables him to embrace life without fear.
It follows that for the Rabbis the struggle against the ‘evil inclination’ is never-ending in this life. Nowhere in the Rabbinic literature is there the faintest suggestion that it is possible for humans permanently to destroy the ‘evil inclination’ in this life. (Eschatological references to the total destruction of the ‘evil inclination’, and its transformation into a ‘good angel’, are irrelevant. The World to Come is not the world in which humans struggle in the here and now.) For the Rabbis, the true hero is, as stated in Ethics of the Fathers (4. 1), one who ‘subdues’ his ‘evil inclination’, one who exercises severe self-control, refusing to yield to temptation. It is not given to anyone actually to slay the ‘evil inclination’. Nor are there references in the Rabbinic literature to the idea, prevalent in the Jewish mystical and moralistic literatures, of ‘breaking the evil inclination’.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 881 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 11:59 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 883 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2020 1:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 884 of 1444 (879771)
07-22-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 883 by PaulK
07-22-2020 1:45 AM


Its Relational...Not About Being Good
I recently heard a good apologetic podcast
quote:
There has been an interesting transition over the last several decades whereby many people seem to reject God not because they don't believe He exists, but rather because they believe that He is cruel and evil, demanding obedience to his tyrannical project. What can we say to someone who believes that God is primarily interested in making his creation toe the line? How do we respond to someone who believes God is saying, "Do things my way or I'll destroy you?" This week Vince and Jo discuss the nature of relationship with God and offer some helpful and gracious ways to question the questioner whose assumptions about God, Heaven, and Hell might not line up with what Scripture teaches and what Christians actually believe.
Question Asked in This Episode: "I am debating with a young person about God. She says if God is real, he is cruel, letting any of his children burn in Hell just because they don't want to do things his way, even if they are a good person. She says it's like a parent that tells his child, 'Do things my way or I'll destroy you.' I don't know how to handle this."
Transcript
And also...in answering your post:
Does God have the evil inclination? If you go with the stronger arguments for it’s necessity then the answer must be yes. But does God have the sex instinct or physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition?
It was my understanding that though God is aware of these traits, all of them being present in a rebellious nature, God does not "have them" in that God does not use them or need them. God is simply aware of evil. He allowed that "spirits" possibility in order to provide a fully free-willed decision process to those beings of His creation who did not fully trust Him and wanted to *know* more. Confusing?
Another point of course, is if the evil inclination is only necessary in the world as it is now, why do we have the world as it is? That’s God’s choice, surely. If a better world is possible, why didn’t God make that one?
The better world is already made and only awaits those who trust the authority and realize that a better world cannot exist for them through their own autonomy.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2020 1:45 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 885 by ringo, posted 07-22-2020 12:28 PM Phat has replied
 Message 886 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2020 12:33 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 887 of 1444 (879775)
07-22-2020 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 885 by ringo
07-22-2020 12:28 PM


Re: Its Relational...Not About Being Good
Whats your point? I know you are in the library and cant listen to the podcast but there is a transcript which I copied.
Transcript
And yes I know this point of view is an apologetic one, but consider the idea in terms of a Parent and Child. The transcript explains the scenario raised.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by ringo, posted 07-22-2020 12:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 889 by ringo, posted 07-22-2020 12:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 888 of 1444 (879776)
07-22-2020 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by PaulK
07-22-2020 12:33 PM


Re: Its Relational...Not About Being Good
I'll admit that the argument is scattered and can be challenged on many levels. The Jewish view challenges the Christian view.
PaulK writes:
I’m quite prepared to accept that if there is a God, he isn’t the monster that - for instance - the Calvinists depict. I’m more likely to reject the depiction.
quote:
Could it be that on a personal level God is always fair and relational, considering your own motives and challenging you to question yourself. On a national level or even a global level, however...God can be quite autocratic. Or do you reject this notion also? Quite frankly I think that God allows the people--all of them--an opportunity to get to know Him and themselves through prayer and communion. If the people individually reject this offer, they will be judged collectively. We will be judged collectively anyway, but the believers will suffer along with the masses yet live to see another day (or even another reality)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2020 12:33 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 891 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2020 1:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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