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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes: What if God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will break their leg? Or fall off a ciff? or commit treason? Is God responsible for any of those results? I would say no. PaulK writes:
Why would you say no ? We can and do hold people responsible for the foreseeable consequences of their actions. Do you insist that God must be held to a lesser standard ? Why ? Surely God can live up to any standard that we would expect from a mere human.Phat writes: So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if we freely chose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we freely chose to be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves? Is foreknowledge itself the sticking point in these discussions PaulK writes: Foreknowledge - or at least a very good idea of what will happen - is an important part of it. But so is the act of creation - and not just of us, but of everything else. Given the usual abilities attributed to God, we might rephrase your words this way:
So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if he manipulates us so that we choose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we are manipulated into being be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves just because he made us do it ?
You call all these things "free choices" but none of them are conscious choices for us. But they are God's conscious choices made before we could do anything, and which we have no power to avoid. How then can we be responsible for them, if God is not ? Continuing... Message 551Phat writes:
Because we have a choice to submit to God or satan.PaulK writes: Which, in this scenario - like all our other choices - has been dictated by God. That is no reason at all not to hold God responsible. My hypothetical scenario is that we humans can freely decide on our chosen course of action based on the choices available to us on any given day of our lives. The apologists tell us that God created a freewilled Lucifer who chose autonomy and rejected obedience and that this was essentially a divine set-up so as to allow free will to be expressed. One can argue that God is still ultimately responsible for this whole scenario but so what? Nobody can indict Him anyway. Determinism would argue that we have no choice in the matter. I say that it is irrelevant what God foreknows. Its His game anyway. We are still responsible for the choices we make on a daily basis. ringo argues that authority is not nor should not be the best option, and that we should essentially live out our roles in this cosmic scenario just as the fallen Lucifer is doing. Something about Dad forgiving us for being rebellious and autonomous. Yet we have already been given a cheat sheet. Jesus is the final answer. Why is this so hard to conceptualize?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Oh hush! Pagan.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
quote:This dictionary is commonly used and came with my BibleSoft software. I'm sure that you will claim that it was hijacked by apologists! So lets see what Wiki has to say:
Lucifer I understand the origin of the various mythos associated with this character, but Christianity basically needs a fallen angel in order to justify the mission of Christ. What sense would it make for God, Creator of all seen and unseen, to simply be represented by another in a long line of fallible human teachers? The fact that you never believed or were convinced of the reality of the supernatural is to your detriment. Take it from one who has witnessed supernatural manifestations. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Utter nonsense. Apologists dont simply make stuff up any more than you can naively and blindly claim that Lucifer is only the King of Babylon. Babylon means confusion and todays world fits that definition. Lucifer is clearly a spirit of pride, autonomy, and power. It is a jealous spirit and seeks to be the focus of self exultation and quite literally the vibe behind all that's wrong with humans in the world today. Lucifier IS the King of Babylon, not just a symbol. Any symbolism has been made up by your apologists. You can fall back on your positions that vilify apologists, but you will find that your so-called literal "common sense" readings into who and what Lucifer is is itself deceptive, misleading, and a disservice to those who seek to know the truth behind human nature. And your insistence on throwing away the entire concept of an evil spirit is itself inspired by the same evil spirit which you deny."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: We've been down this rabbit trail before! Your basic argument is that God had no reason to "create" or allow an attractive nuisence such as the Tree of Knowledge in the garden without thus becoming fully responsible for any collateral damage that said tree may cause. So I'll give you that one. Blame God! It matters not. The issue is as you quoted above, being that a "spirit" such as what satan would hypothetically have is inconsistent with an omniscient God. Which I agree with. That "spirit" is not consistent with an omniscient God. You scold me for adopting the good/evil cosmic battle as part of my Theology...but Jesus is more than simply a good humanist. And humans are doomed to repeat their errors if they refuse to understand the mental/spiritual state that gets them in trouble."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Why must it be one or the other? Simply because God is all-knowing does not necessitate satans non-existence. So which is it? Is God omniscient? Or does Satan exist?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PaulK writes: This smacks of determinism. We can freely choose to do whatever there is available for us to do. We can feed a bird. Or a homeless man. We can protest government stupidity or excesses of power. We can ignore our family. We can shoot someone. If we can freely decide to do what God has decided we are going to do (and only that) then it seems to me that God has a good deal more responsibility than we do for our decisions. According to apologetic logic, God allowed an adversary to exist. This adversary is in the angelic class. Don't ask me about the classifications...I will admit that some dogma and myth's sound a bit unnecessary and outlandish. Tangle is a sane one for choosing realism and empiricism, but he insults the many people who have chosen to believe the old stories.And you may ask why an otherwise intelligent man such as myself chose to believe? My answer, among others, is that I initially wanted a God to exist--but on my terms.My Dad and his generous wallet were sufficient for me in the early years---as I was just simply growing up, exploring reality, and planning an optimistic and successful future. Later, I felt dissatisfied with life and with the way that things were going in the world. Had I grown up today I would have felt even more this way. The real reason that I decided to believe is that I experienced confirmation several times. PaulK writes: If you argue that God isn’t going to accept responsibility and is going to put all the blame on us anyway because nobody can make him do otherwise - then I’ll just point out that you are denying that God is good. I don't think God is blaming humans.He knew that part of the reality of our creation and survival would involve free choice and a spiritual struggle. He allowed the struggle because, as far as I can reason, he had to allow the possibility of autonomy (and rebellion) against Him to exist. It had to be a definite choice. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Nobody said that God was the "victim" of unforeseen circumstances. Do you honestly think that Jesus was Plan B? Jesus was Plan A from the beginning.
Therefore you, the descendant of the original "build" back in the garden of Eden, will do as the builder foresaw you would. You have no autonomy. I have the choice to choose autonomy or communion. Even if God somehow foreknew my choice is itself irrelevant to me. And even if I end up accepting your argument that Gods foreknowledge eliminates any choice in the matter, what problem would *you* never mind I have with such a life? Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Sarah Bellum writes: I would argue that within that framework, we can decide to acknowledge and obey or we can decide to ignore and be autonomous or as some would say humanists and responsible for our daily decisions. If an omniscient god (allegedly) created a universe that ticks away like a perfect clockwork, then, in answer to the topic, there is no free will. And I might add there is no reason we cannot borrow from both extremes. As far as true Free Will, such as the ability to re-imagine the universe in our image, I would say no---we do not have that kind of free will."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So you see us as characters in a book? Interesting concept. But what if we co-authored the book with God? We essentially became the decisions we made.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PaulK writes: To me it makes logical sense that the "Fall" was originally anticipated. jar of course thinks its all silly and that the "Fall" was an apologetic marketing scam and I never can counter his arguments---he basically thinks all apologists are dishonest. Then the Fall was also part of Plan A from the beginning. Calvinists believe that, but a lot of other Christians insist otherwise... Of course I can and do stick by my guns regarding the basic scenario which I feel is most likely. Granted it is not plainly supportable using the Bible alone, though most apologists run with it--and I think that they feel or believe that some of us have a connection and insight into Gods plan based on our communion through the Spirit. Which opens up a whole nother can o worms as many critics claim that the Bible plainlyu says what it says and can be as easily interpreted by an atheist scholar as it can by an "enlightened" one. So here we are. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
quote: "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I recently heard a good apologetic podcast
quote:Transcript And also...in answering your post:
Does God have the evil inclination? If you go with the stronger arguments for it’s necessity then the answer must be yes. But does God have the sex instinct or physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition? It was my understanding that though God is aware of these traits, all of them being present in a rebellious nature, God does not "have them" in that God does not use them or need them. God is simply aware of evil. He allowed that "spirits" possibility in order to provide a fully free-willed decision process to those beings of His creation who did not fully trust Him and wanted to *know* more. Confusing?
Another point of course, is if the evil inclination is only necessary in the world as it is now, why do we have the world as it is? That’s God’s choice, surely. If a better world is possible, why didn’t God make that one? The better world is already made and only awaits those who trust the authority and realize that a better world cannot exist for them through their own autonomy. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Whats your point? I know you are in the library and cant listen to the podcast but there is a transcript which I copied.
Transcript And yes I know this point of view is an apologetic one, but consider the idea in terms of a Parent and Child. The transcript explains the scenario raised."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I'll admit that the argument is scattered and can be challenged on many levels. The Jewish view challenges the Christian view.
PaulK writes: Could it be that on a personal level God is always fair and relational, considering your own motives and challenging you to question yourself. On a national level or even a global level, however...God can be quite autocratic. Or do you reject this notion also? Quite frankly I think that God allows the people--all of them--an opportunity to get to know Him and themselves through prayer and communion. If the people individually reject this offer, they will be judged collectively. We will be judged collectively anyway, but the believers will suffer along with the masses yet live to see another day (or even another reality) I’m quite prepared to accept that if there is a God, he isn’t the monster that - for instance - the Calvinists depict. I’m more likely to reject the depiction. quote:"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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