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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1910 of 2073 (879497)
07-17-2020 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1909 by kjsimons
07-16-2020 9:57 PM


Re: Impossible is not probable
Kleinman writes:
No, what I am saying is there is evidence today that carnivores can survive on non-meat diets. Where is your evidence from the past or future that says carnivores can only survive on meat?
kjsimons writes:
Well if we didn't think you were a crank before, this nails it! The foods in your Peta link are not something a carnivore could find in the wild, so yeah, carnivores can't live on naturally available plants and need meat, as they are, as you know, carnivores.
I stand corrected. So, is the correct phylogenetic tree for carnivores? Bananas=>Venous Fly Trap=>Tiktaalik =>t Rex? Of course, there are a couple of transitional nodes left out. Is it true that t Rex was green because it still retained the ability to produce chlorophyll?

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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1917 of 2073 (879645)
07-19-2020 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1916 by Straggler
07-19-2020 12:17 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Straggler writes:
You seem to have missed it so let’s try again.
I need you to tell me the probability of fair skin, blue eyes, lactase persistence and alcohol tolerance all having evolved during the mesolithic (i.e when the total number of humans that had ever lived was about 400 million according to your link).
You do it. It’s your calculation.
Tell us how many mutations are required for each trait and I'll show you how to compute the probability. We can do the same thing with tiktaalik. Tell us how many mutations required to produce a tetrapod from some replicator that doesn't have legs and I can tell you the probability as a function of the population size and mutation rate, either in best case scenario or in the case when multiple mutations are needed in order to improve fitness. The math is difficult, you should learn it.
Straggler writes:
You were desperate to show how bewilderingly impossible evolution was earlier when talking about chimpanzees and whatnot. Let’s see what your calculations say about the likelihood of relatively recent human traits.
Why are you stalling?
Who's stalling? I already told you it will take about a billion replications just to get a malaria beneficial mutation because we know what that mutation is. For the other traits, you have to specify the number of mutations for each of those traits. Under the best of circumstances, if you want all those traits in a single lineage, it is going to take about a billion replications for each evolutionary step. It really isn't any different than the Kishony and Lenski lineages accumulating their mutations to improved fitness in their environments. I'm surprised you are having so much difficulty understanding this. It really isn't much different than the coin tossing problem, only highly asymmetric.

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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1927 of 2073 (879772)
07-22-2020 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1926 by Tangle
07-21-2020 5:16 PM


Tangle writes:
It's a null topic, of course both evolution and religion should be taught in schools. Evolution is an established and basic part of biology. Religion is an important part of global history and culture.
But why pick on evolution? Is geology ok?
And why restrict religious education to, presumably Christianity? And to dogma and practice rather than history and comparative religious study?
I certainly haven't argued that evolution shouldn't be taught in school. But I also think that alchemy shouldn't be taught as chemistry and that is what the fish-to-mammals aficionados are doing with the teaching of evolution. Every biology student should understand the simple evolutionary experiments. And that means they must understand the mathematics of stochastic processes. Would you expect an engineering student to be able to describe the motion of a bridge or building in an earthquake but not be able to describe the motion of a mass and a spring or a pendulum? But that's what you expect from biology students. Biology students are being taught dogma, not science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1926 by Tangle, posted 07-21-2020 5:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1928 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 1:22 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1930 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2020 3:05 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1929 of 2073 (879786)
07-22-2020 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1928 by Phat
07-22-2020 1:22 PM


Re: In summation:
Phat writes:
So without derailing this topic, which admins wont allow...summarize your point. It seems to me that your point is that evolution itself is being incorrectly taught. Which is darn near off topic. It seems to be a view unique to you and a few others.
I thought I had summarized my point in the previous post. Message 1927
Kleinman writes:
Every biology student should understand the simple evolutionary experiments. And that means they must understand the mathematics of stochastic processes. Would you expect an engineering student to be able to describe the motion of a bridge or building in an earthquake but not be able to describe the motion of a mass and a spring or a pendulum? But that's what you expect from biology students.
You and Tangle have something in common. Neither of you understand the science of evolution. And neither do the fish-to-mammals aficionados. If any of you did, you could explain the mathematical behavior of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments. Evolution is not some mysterious process that is too complicated to comprehend. All the tools necessary to measure this process are readily available and have been applied in detail to the Lenski experiment and less so to the Kishony experiment. The population sizes have been measured, the mutations are identified, the rates of accumulation of these mutations are known and they accumulate in a mathematically predictable pattern if you correctly identify the variables in the evolutionary process. The Lenski experiment has been around for more than 30 years and the Kishony experiment for about 5 years. Where are the fish-to-mammals aficionados' papers which correctly describe these evolutionary process in either of these experiments? They don't exist. Yet they think they can describe the evolution of fish to mammals by saying they are distant relatives. If they think that, it has to be by the same evolutionary process that the Kishony and Lenski experiment follow, a billion replications for each adaptive mutation for every variant on that evolutionary trajectory and that's for the best of circumstances of only a single selection pressure acting at a time. So biology students aren't being taught science, they are being taugth mathematically irrational dogma about evolution. At least Tangle was honest enough to say that he doesn't understand this science. The rest of the fish-to-mammals aficionados should be so honest. This earth is not flat and fish don't evolve into mammals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1928 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 1:22 PM Phat has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1931 of 2073 (879789)
07-22-2020 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1930 by Tangle
07-22-2020 3:05 PM


Kleinman writes:
But I also think that alchemy shouldn't be taught as chemistry
Tangle writes:
Good, but luckily there's seems to be no religious objection to alchemy and it's not science so we're all clear.
Actually, you can turn lead into gold by nuclear transmutation. Can you explain how your so-called distant relatives, fish, evolved into mammals?
Kleinman writes:
And that means they must understand the mathematics of stochastic processes.
Tangle writes:
Luckily, statistics is part of every science degree that has any interest in research - which is pretty much all of them even social science these days - so you're not going to get any arguments. Rocket science it ain't.
It's one thing to take a course in probabilities and statistics, it is quite another to understand how to apply the prinicples correctly, especially to evolution. And I know something about rocket science since that's what I was paid to do as an engineer and have published in that field.
Kleinman writes:
Biology students are being taught dogma, not science.
Tangle writes:
And then you go and drop our pants and reveal yourself as a religiously motivated clown again. Evolution is core curriculum for biology and will be for ever.
I've talked to many biologists and biology students over the years and not one could explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments. The best explanation of evolution they can come up with is that fish are distant relatives of mammals. When are they going to learn how evolution works with direct relatives? Obviously, any training in statistics doesn't give you the capability to do the math.
Tangle writes:
Or until you stand on the Nobel podium. I literally can't wait.
Edward Tatum already gave the correct explanation of evolution in his 1958 Nobel Laureate lecture. I just put the math to his explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1930 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2020 3:05 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1933 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2020 4:30 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1935 of 2073 (879809)
07-22-2020 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1934 by AdminPhat
07-22-2020 4:50 PM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
dad writes:
What can be taught is how bacteria or whatever now adapt and evolve. To teach more IS religion.
Phat writes:
This argument has now been presented. This topic is not specifically about your claims regarding modern evolution. Please stop with this point which is off topic for this particular thread.
I will be handing out one day suspensions for subsequent off topic violations.
So this topic is only about teaching 19th century concepts about evolution? Why doesn't it bother you about how evolution is taught? Don't you think that biology students should be taught how bacteria evolve resistance to drugs and why cancer treatments fail? Or do you think that biology students only need to be indoctrinated with the notion that fish are their distant relatives? I think this upsets you because you are one of those mathematically incompetent fish-to-mammals aficionados.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1934 by AdminPhat, posted 07-22-2020 4:50 PM AdminPhat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1938 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 6:09 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1939 of 2073 (879814)
07-22-2020 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1936 by vimesey
07-22-2020 5:23 PM


vimesey writes:
He's been banging the same (very small) drum in informal websites like these for 13 years at least. And in all that time, he's not had the guts to publish his anti-evolutionary theory claims with any degree of honesty in any respected peer reviewed scientific journal. 13 years. The very epitome of a coward.
I publish my papers in journals where they understand mathematics. That doesn't include the fossil tea-leaf reading journals and Mad magazine. But if any of your "scientific" journals published a paper explaining the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments, why don't you point us to those links? You won't.
vimesey writes:
And you asked him how old he thought the earth was didn't you ? And he didn't have the guts to reply openly. Coward again.
I leave the speculation to those who are experts on this, the fish-to-mammals aficionados.
Hey Phat, is the age of the earth question on topic? How about the shape of the earth?

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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1940 of 2073 (879815)
07-22-2020 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1937 by Tangle
07-22-2020 5:48 PM


Tangle writes:
It's odd isn't it?
Evolution denying has become a thing like holocaust denial and antivax. That's all mad enough but I really don't get religion denying. That's supposed to be against everything they're supposed to believe.
Who's denying evolution? Aside from Taq giving us the 3e9 number of replications for a particular mutation to occur, I'm the only one on this forum giving any correct mathematics. Well, maybe AZPaul3 thinks that some number between 1 and indeterminant is his idea of mathematics.
Tangle writes:
I suppose they find a way to justify it to themselves but only them and their god knows how.
I can't justify it to you, you don't have the mathematical and scientific skills to understand the justification. You should take a course in introductory probability theory, you would have a much better understanding of this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1937 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2020 5:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1942 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2020 3:18 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1941 of 2073 (879816)
07-22-2020 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1938 by Phat
07-22-2020 6:09 PM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
Kleinman writes:
So this topic is only about teaching 19th century concepts about evolution?
Phat writes:
Evidently you claim that it is. I see no major problem with the school system in regards to their teaching of biological,sociological,anthropological and mathematical concepts. The topic was more focused on what brand of sacred studies or religious studies should be added to the curriculum.
From Message 1
extent writes:
How can we teach both evolution and religion in school when they seemingly conflict so much with one another?
What's more sacred than the truth? Is it true that fish are our distant relatives? If so, how did this happen?
Kleinman writes:
Don't you think that biology students should be taught how bacteria evolve resistance to drugs and why cancer treatments fail? Or do you think that biology students only need to be indoctrinated with the notion that fish are their distant relatives? I think this upsets you because you are one of those mathematically incompetent fish-to-mammals aficionados.
Phat writes:
You really like to push that point that *we* all are mathematically incompetent, don't you? The facts which I see are that
1) Your view is a minority view pushed by extremists. I see that students are taught quite well in our system. And by the way, how did *you* learn your math and how did *you* learn about drug resistance and better cancer treatments? My basic gripe with you is that you are taking this topic in directions it need not go.
So you think an incorrect explanation of the physics and mathematics of evolution is the correct way to go?
Kleinman writes:
I've talked to many biologists and biology students over the years and not one could explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments.
Phat writes:
OK lets assume that they knew what you know. For the bloody sake of argument. What now will happen in the field of study? To me, all that I see is a bunch of students who think like you do. And i'm not sure that would be any better for the teaching profession than what they currently have. OK. We are done with your rabbit trail. Don't rehash your arguments again. This topic *will* remain on course.
What they will know is the correct physics and mathematics of evolution. And you think that stamping their feet and saying that the theory of evolution is true is not rehashing their argument? It isn't even an argument, they can't even explain the simplest evolutionary experiments. And sometimes the majority is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1938 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 6:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1943 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 9:59 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1960 by FLRW, posted 07-30-2020 4:09 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1944 of 2073 (879828)
07-23-2020 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1942 by Tangle
07-23-2020 3:18 AM


Kleinman writes:
Who's denying evolution?
Tangle writes:
That would be you kleinman, you're a young earth creationist.
Other than Taq who correctly computed the number of replications required for a beneficial mutation to occur (3e9), I'm the only one on this forum who has given a correct explanation of the mathematics of evolution. And what does the age of the earth have to do with evolution? Other than the association that fish-to-mammals make with their dogma, the age of the earth has nothing to do with the physics and mathematics of evolution (which you have admitted you don't understand). In addition, I have never made a statement about the age of the earth. The reason I haven't is that I don't know.
Kleinman writes:
I can't justify it to you, you don't have the mathematical and scientific skills to understand the justification.
Tangle writes:
I'm not interested in your mathematics, my comment had nothing to do with your mathematics. Sometimes normal people talk of other subjects. I was wondering how you reconcile denying your beliefs whilst being a Christian. It's another version of lying for Jesus.
Your mind reading skills are no better than your mathematical skills. You could do something about your incompetence in mathematics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1942 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2020 3:18 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1948 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2020 2:37 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1945 of 2073 (879829)
07-23-2020 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1943 by ringo
07-23-2020 9:59 AM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
Kleinman writes:
Is it true that fish are our distant relatives? If so, how did this happen?
ringo writes:
You seem to think that's what's being taught in schools. If you've been to school, you ought to know.
I've spent plenty of years in school and that's what was taught at that time. With all the social promotions, need for remedial courses in colleges, kids leaving college with huge debts and unable to find jobs, who knows what is being taught now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1943 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 9:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1946 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 12:49 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1947 of 2073 (879836)
07-23-2020 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1946 by ringo
07-23-2020 12:49 PM


Re: TOE is religion in schools
Kleinman writes:
I've spent plenty of years in school and that's what was taught at that time.
ringo writes:
Then you shouldn't need to ask us, "how did this happen?"
Why not? None of the fish-to-mammals aficionados explained it then other than they said it takes a long, long time. And your explanation is no better. They also didn't explain how drug resistance evolves or why cancer treatments fail. They and you actually don't explain anything about evolution. Is that what you think should be taught about evolution is schools?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1946 by ringo, posted 07-23-2020 12:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1949 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-23-2020 4:10 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 1955 by ringo, posted 07-24-2020 9:04 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
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