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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 906 of 1444 (879921)
07-25-2020 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 905 by Phat
07-24-2020 8:09 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
Phat writes:
Is wanting independence from God a good thing or a bad thing?
Isn't independence pretty much a good thing automatically? Do you want your mother picking out your clothes when you're sixty? Do you want the US to beg to be colonized by Peru?
Phat writes:
Before the prodigal son returned home to his Dad, did he change his mind and/or behavior?
The story isn't about the son's behaviour. It's about the father's behaviour.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 905 by Phat, posted 07-24-2020 8:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 909 by Phat, posted 07-25-2020 1:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 910 of 1444 (879942)
07-26-2020 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 909 by Phat
07-25-2020 1:46 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
Phat writes:
Thus, it is about both the Father and the prodigal sons mental states.
On the contrary, the father accepted his son back NO MATTER WHAT - i.e. no matter what his son's mental state was. Look at the context: the story is coupled with the parable of the lost sheep and the lost coin. Neither the sheep nor the coin had a mental state that was significant to the story.
And the beginning of Luke 15 has the scribes and Pharisees complaining that Jesus ate with sinners; the whole point of all three stories is that the lost one that is found is MORE valuable than the ones that stayed at home like nice, obedient sheep, coins and sons.
Phat writes:
Should a Father accept His murderous son home again if the son never showed repentance for his rebellious choices?
Yes. What else can you possibly get from the stories?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 909 by Phat, posted 07-25-2020 1:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 911 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 10:02 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 912 of 1444 (879946)
07-26-2020 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 911 by Phat
07-26-2020 10:02 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
Phat writes:
Namely that the son also had a change of heart.
The sheep didn't and the coin didn't, so it's clear that that is not a valid claim.
Phat writes:
This is why I tell you that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will be accepted into Heaven.
That's a different story, one that is not about a father's attitude toward his children.
Phat writes:
You gotta ditch the cigarette!
Clearly not. Neither the sheep nor the coin changed their behaviour.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 911 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 10:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 913 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 2:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 914 of 1444 (879957)
07-26-2020 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 913 by Phat
07-26-2020 2:31 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
Phat writes:
My point is that in this family, relationship was biological, spiritual, and unconditional. The Father and the son were brought back together into communion through an initiation by the son\ to return home.
It sounds like you're saying that the human father was a better father than God.
Phat writes:
Without that initiation, the son would have remained lost.
We don't know that. By analogy with the shepherd and the lost sheep, he might well have gone looking for his son.
Phat writes:
The son knows better than to bring home a concubine.
There is nothing in the story about repentence. The son planned to confess to his father that he had sinned but his father came running to meet him before he could do it. Clearly the father didn't care how his son came home as long as he came home.
Phat writes:
If he once smoked, he has enough respect for his Father that he wo0uldnt have a cigarette.
The story doesn't even hint at that. You're making it up.
Phat writes:
He knows that the decision to accept him is entirely the Fathers choice.
No, he didn't expect his father to accept him at all. He only wanted to go back as a servant because his father's servants had food.
Phat writes:
My argument with you is the idea that anyone can simply waltz back home, perhaps even Satan included, and be accepted into Heaven with no strings attached.
Your argument is with Jesus. The parable is exceedingly clear that that's exactly the situation.
Phat writes:
What you are telling me is that Dad (God) would accept any lost sheep back home with no strings attached.
What strings were attached to the sheep?
Phat writes:
For the Prodigal, what separated him from Dad was his own rebellious entitled nature. He dropped that before daring to return.
No he didn't. Read the story.
And while you're reading it, notice that the obedient son is the one who is angry at his father, who thinks his father has handled the situation wrong, who thinks his brother should not be rewarded. Does he remind you of anybody?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 913 by Phat, posted 07-26-2020 2:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 953 by Phat, posted 07-31-2020 12:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 922 of 1444 (880048)
07-28-2020 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 919 by Phat
07-28-2020 9:58 AM


Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
Phat writes:
When does God *know* the consequences? At the point that we make them.
That's not omniscience. That's observation.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 919 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 9:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 923 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 1:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 924 of 1444 (880057)
07-28-2020 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 923 by Phat
07-28-2020 1:58 PM


Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
Phat writes:
If God was all-knowing yet you had not yet made a decision in time, how could God foreknow what your decision would be?
That's what omniscient means. If He doesn't know what our decision is going to be, he's just observing it like anybody else.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 923 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 1:58 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 925 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 11:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 932 of 1444 (880095)
07-29-2020 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 925 by Phat
07-28-2020 11:57 PM


Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
Phat writes:
But if He DOES know what you will decide you are little more than a robot.
If He DOESN'T know what you will decide, He isn't omniscient. ANYBODY can see what your decision WAS after you have made it. An omniscient God HAS to know what it is BEFORE you make it.
If that makes you a robot, it makes you a robot. You can't change the meaning of omniscience just because you don't want to be a robot.
Phat writes:
I beliwve that God chose to be an observer.
Then you don't believe in an omniscient God.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 925 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 11:57 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 954 of 1444 (880266)
07-31-2020 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by Phat
07-31-2020 12:20 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
Phat writes:
I do get a bit miffed at shoplifters....
Why do you bring that up in a thread where it's completely irrelevant?
Answer my post that you quoted:
quote:
... notice that the obedient son is the one who is angry at his father, who thinks his father has handled the situation wrong, who thinks his brother should not be rewarded. Does he remind you of anybody?
You're disagreeing with God's unconditional love.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by Phat, posted 07-31-2020 12:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 955 by Phat, posted 07-31-2020 1:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 958 of 1444 (880298)
08-01-2020 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 955 by Phat
07-31-2020 1:26 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
Phat writes:
Personally I think that every harmful and bad habit that we have is inspired by the "other" spirit.
If God's love is unconditional, there can not BE an "other" spirit. The prodigal son's father didn't put any limits on his son's return. There was nothing "other" that would have changed his mind.
Phat writes:
The reason I argue with you about this is because you seem to think we can keep "them" and that God will accept us and them back home.
That's what the story says.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 955 by Phat, posted 07-31-2020 1:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 960 by Phat, posted 08-01-2020 3:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 961 of 1444 (880327)
08-02-2020 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 960 by Phat
08-01-2020 3:23 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodigies?
Phat writes:
I believe that God offers to save everybody but places the onus on them to accept or reject the Communion.
But that is NOT what the story of the prodigal son says. It's specifically about a son who does NOT accept the "communion". Remember that the chapter containing the parable begins with the Pharisees complaining about Jesus eating with publicans and sinners. Remember that the two other parables in that chapter - the lost sheep and the lost coin - definitely do NOT require repentence.
Apparently, Jesus preferred the company of those who did NOT just mouth, "Lord! Lord!"
Phat writes:
... I maintain that there is such a thing as a regenerated soul and a changed nature.
Sometimes people do change but it clearly is not restricted to believers - nor does it happen to all believers. So it isn't about belief.
Phat writes:
I believe that there is a spiritual conflict.
It's an internal conflict. There's no reason to think there's anything external involved.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 960 by Phat, posted 08-01-2020 3:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 979 of 1444 (880385)
08-04-2020 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 967 by Phat
08-03-2020 9:51 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
I do respect my opponents position that Jesus was the messenger of a very humane, Spirit Filled and sensible message....
I certainly wouldn't agree with "Spirit Filled". There's a reason why we call alcohol "spirits" - when people are filled with spirits, they tend not to think clearly.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 967 by Phat, posted 08-03-2020 9:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 982 of 1444 (880388)
08-04-2020 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 981 by Tangle
08-04-2020 12:31 PM


Tangle writes:
... can you tell me whether you feel capable of shooting a child in the head tomorrow?
During the Vietnam War (I am Canadian, so I couldn't be drafted but I was the right age) a bunch of us had a discussion about what we would do IF we were drafted. The general consensus was that we were pacifists and we would find some way to avoid serving. BUT, when my turn came, I said, "If the government told me to go halfway around the world and kill little brown people - and the alternative was going to jail or fleeing the country - I probably would go and kill little brown people.
Maybe that makes me a psychopath. I prefer to think of myself as a psychopath with a very thin social fence holding me back.
I could certainly covet an ox. I could steal an ox - but that thin social fence holds me back from that too.
Tangle writes:
A psychopath could do it - they actually do possess free will;
I have often said that crime is the purest form of free enterprise.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 981 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2020 12:31 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 983 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2020 1:25 PM ringo has replied
 Message 986 by Phat, posted 08-04-2020 8:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 984 of 1444 (880395)
08-04-2020 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 983 by Tangle
08-04-2020 1:25 PM


Tangle writes:
Then you are not free, my child :-)
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 983 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2020 1:25 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 985 by Phat, posted 08-04-2020 8:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 987 of 1444 (880414)
08-05-2020 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 985 by Phat
08-04-2020 8:23 PM


Re: Bumper Sticker Or Unique Meaning In Context?
Phat writes:
My point here is that "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" could also be construed as a bumper sticker gleaned from the early young ringos formation of his world views in context of the times he grew up in.
Well, it is in the context of the times I grew up in - Janis Joplin died when I was 18.
But it's not a bumper sticker; it's an icon. It was in response to what Tangle said: "Personally my free will to do many of the things that are morally wrong - stealing, raping, pillaging etc - I am incapable of." Message 981
He maintains that we are not free to do certain things, whether because of conscience or fear of social sanctions, etc.. In any case, "free will" is out the window. We are not free to choose anything we CAN (physically) do.
Phat writes:
So in answering Tangle, what specifically did you mean?
It was just a phrase about freedom that popped into my head. It seems to fit. "Free will" ain't worth nothing.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by Phat, posted 08-04-2020 8:23 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 989 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2020 1:27 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 988 of 1444 (880415)
08-05-2020 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 986 by Phat
08-04-2020 8:27 PM


Phat writes:
ringo writes:
I have often said that crime is the purest form of free enterprise.
This soundbite is what got me thinking about those shoplifters again. I have many stories. But they are for another topic.
The irony is that right-wingers like you are "tough on crime" and at the same time you worship "free enterprise" - of which criminals are true practitioners.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 986 by Phat, posted 08-04-2020 8:27 PM Phat has not replied

  
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