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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Isn't independence pretty much a good thing automatically? Do you want your mother picking out your clothes when you're sixty? Do you want the US to beg to be colonized by Peru?
Is wanting independence from God a good thing or a bad thing? Phat writes:
The story isn't about the son's behaviour. It's about the father's behaviour. Before the prodigal son returned home to his Dad, did he change his mind and/or behavior?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
On the contrary, the father accepted his son back NO MATTER WHAT - i.e. no matter what his son's mental state was. Look at the context: the story is coupled with the parable of the lost sheep and the lost coin. Neither the sheep nor the coin had a mental state that was significant to the story. Thus, it is about both the Father and the prodigal sons mental states. And the beginning of Luke 15 has the scribes and Pharisees complaining that Jesus ate with sinners; the whole point of all three stories is that the lost one that is found is MORE valuable than the ones that stayed at home like nice, obedient sheep, coins and sons.
Phat writes:
Yes. What else can you possibly get from the stories? Should a Father accept His murderous son home again if the son never showed repentance for his rebellious choices?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The sheep didn't and the coin didn't, so it's clear that that is not a valid claim.
Namely that the son also had a change of heart. Phat writes:
That's a different story, one that is not about a father's attitude toward his children.
This is why I tell you that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will be accepted into Heaven. Phat writes:
Clearly not. Neither the sheep nor the coin changed their behaviour. You gotta ditch the cigarette!"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It sounds like you're saying that the human father was a better father than God.
My point is that in this family, relationship was biological, spiritual, and unconditional. The Father and the son were brought back together into communion through an initiation by the son\ to return home. Phat writes:
We don't know that. By analogy with the shepherd and the lost sheep, he might well have gone looking for his son.
Without that initiation, the son would have remained lost. Phat writes:
There is nothing in the story about repentence. The son planned to confess to his father that he had sinned but his father came running to meet him before he could do it. Clearly the father didn't care how his son came home as long as he came home.
The son knows better than to bring home a concubine. Phat writes:
The story doesn't even hint at that. You're making it up.
If he once smoked, he has enough respect for his Father that he wo0uldnt have a cigarette. Phat writes:
No, he didn't expect his father to accept him at all. He only wanted to go back as a servant because his father's servants had food.
He knows that the decision to accept him is entirely the Fathers choice. Phat writes:
Your argument is with Jesus. The parable is exceedingly clear that that's exactly the situation.
My argument with you is the idea that anyone can simply waltz back home, perhaps even Satan included, and be accepted into Heaven with no strings attached. Phat writes:
What strings were attached to the sheep?
What you are telling me is that Dad (God) would accept any lost sheep back home with no strings attached. Phat writes:
No he didn't. Read the story. For the Prodigal, what separated him from Dad was his own rebellious entitled nature. He dropped that before daring to return. And while you're reading it, notice that the obedient son is the one who is angry at his father, who thinks his father has handled the situation wrong, who thinks his brother should not be rewarded. Does he remind you of anybody?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's not omniscience. That's observation. When does God *know* the consequences? At the point that we make them."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's what omniscient means. If He doesn't know what our decision is going to be, he's just observing it like anybody else. If God was all-knowing yet you had not yet made a decision in time, how could God foreknow what your decision would be?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If He DOESN'T know what you will decide, He isn't omniscient. ANYBODY can see what your decision WAS after you have made it. An omniscient God HAS to know what it is BEFORE you make it. But if He DOES know what you will decide you are little more than a robot. If that makes you a robot, it makes you a robot. You can't change the meaning of omniscience just because you don't want to be a robot.
Phat writes:
Then you don't believe in an omniscient God. I beliwve that God chose to be an observer."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why do you bring that up in a thread where it's completely irrelevant? I do get a bit miffed at shoplifters.... Answer my post that you quoted:
quote: You're disagreeing with God's unconditional love."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If God's love is unconditional, there can not BE an "other" spirit. The prodigal son's father didn't put any limits on his son's return. There was nothing "other" that would have changed his mind.
Personally I think that every harmful and bad habit that we have is inspired by the "other" spirit. Phat writes:
That's what the story says. The reason I argue with you about this is because you seem to think we can keep "them" and that God will accept us and them back home."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But that is NOT what the story of the prodigal son says. It's specifically about a son who does NOT accept the "communion". Remember that the chapter containing the parable begins with the Pharisees complaining about Jesus eating with publicans and sinners. Remember that the two other parables in that chapter - the lost sheep and the lost coin - definitely do NOT require repentence. I believe that God offers to save everybody but places the onus on them to accept or reject the Communion. Apparently, Jesus preferred the company of those who did NOT just mouth, "Lord! Lord!"
Phat writes:
Sometimes people do change but it clearly is not restricted to believers - nor does it happen to all believers. So it isn't about belief.
... I maintain that there is such a thing as a regenerated soul and a changed nature. Phat writes:
It's an internal conflict. There's no reason to think there's anything external involved. I believe that there is a spiritual conflict."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I certainly wouldn't agree with "Spirit Filled". There's a reason why we call alcohol "spirits" - when people are filled with spirits, they tend not to think clearly. I do respect my opponents position that Jesus was the messenger of a very humane, Spirit Filled and sensible message...."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
During the Vietnam War (I am Canadian, so I couldn't be drafted but I was the right age) a bunch of us had a discussion about what we would do IF we were drafted. The general consensus was that we were pacifists and we would find some way to avoid serving. BUT, when my turn came, I said, "If the government told me to go halfway around the world and kill little brown people - and the alternative was going to jail or fleeing the country - I probably would go and kill little brown people. ... can you tell me whether you feel capable of shooting a child in the head tomorrow? Maybe that makes me a psychopath. I prefer to think of myself as a psychopath with a very thin social fence holding me back. I could certainly covet an ox. I could steal an ox - but that thin social fence holds me back from that too.
Tangle writes:
I have often said that crime is the purest form of free enterprise. A psychopath could do it - they actually do possess free will;"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. Then you are not free, my child :-)"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well, it is in the context of the times I grew up in - Janis Joplin died when I was 18. My point here is that "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" could also be construed as a bumper sticker gleaned from the early young ringos formation of his world views in context of the times he grew up in. But it's not a bumper sticker; it's an icon. It was in response to what Tangle said: "Personally my free will to do many of the things that are morally wrong - stealing, raping, pillaging etc - I am incapable of." Message 981 He maintains that we are not free to do certain things, whether because of conscience or fear of social sanctions, etc.. In any case, "free will" is out the window. We are not free to choose anything we CAN (physically) do.
Phat writes:
It was just a phrase about freedom that popped into my head. It seems to fit. "Free will" ain't worth nothing. So in answering Tangle, what specifically did you mean?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The irony is that right-wingers like you are "tough on crime" and at the same time you worship "free enterprise" - of which criminals are true practitioners. ringo writes:
This soundbite is what got me thinking about those shoplifters again. I have many stories. But they are for another topic. I have often said that crime is the purest form of free enterprise."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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