Free will vs Omniscience

Yes - if this is the way it "must be" - then I agree.Of course "freewill" and "someone getting hurt" are two very large ranges.
I don't see them as on/off switches.That is - the freewill to but a t-shirt or a sweater, to vacation in Cuba or the Galapagos, to spend time with these people over those people... seems like such freewill could be contained if other freewill like wanting to kill another person or have sex without consent were removed.As with getting hurt. I don't see why we could still stub our toes if things like sex without consent were prevented.How could it be prevented?
Again - if it's "impossible for God" - then, fair enough, God is not all powerful and we have what we have.
But, if it's not "impossible for God" - then God is either evil (towards humans, anyway) for not creating a better world - or God doesn't exist.And that question: Is it impossible for God or not? - is certainly a question that I'm not capable of answering.

Almost, but not quite.Add the qualifier "and God created everything" and you're right.But if God (or "something/someone" in general) did not create our choices, then they could be all-powerful, and all-knowing and we can still have choice.For example:First, let's assume we have choice in order to explain what I'm talking about.3 days ago, I made a choice to buy pink lemonade instead of regular white lemonade.
If you were to look at this history of this choice from 3-days ago, it would be viewed as if I was "following a script."
-but, the choice was created by me, I chose what I wanted... but, if it was recorded, anyone could view the script-looking history and see the choice I made.Let's take this knowledge and apply it to the possibility of an all-powerful, all-knowing God:
-it requires a definition clarification: "all-knowing" is encompassed to the universe we live within" - does not necessarily encompass outside of our universe
-in the same way we say "gravity affects all things" - it is encompassed to the universe we live within, it does not necessarily encompass outside of our universe
-to an all-powerful, all-knowing God... it doesn't matter if the choice I make was 3-days ago or 3-days in the future, it all "looks like a script" to Him, and He could see all the choices we make in our entire lives.The obvious question is: how are they "the choices we make" without God knowing them, if God knows everything?
-If God does not know all the choices we are going to make, then makes the universe, and only then "can see the future of the universe (and all resulting choices we're going to freely make within that universe)"
-This gives us a universe where we freely make all our choices, and God knows what all those choices will be past/present/future... but it's still US who make the choice, as there was a moment (before the universe was created) where God did not know what we would choose.It's all in the definition of "all-knowing"Any God who knows everything that has happened, and will happen within our universe certainly fits the bill of being "all-knowing"
-however, there needs to be a moment when God will not know what we will choose, in order for use to have free-choice
-place this moment before the creation of our universe... and all requirements are fulfilled:God is all-knowing, all-powerful and we have free choice.Of course, I don't believe in God at all... but that doesn't mean such an idea is impossible to imagine.

Right.
Except it doesn't really matter.Most people when they say God is "all knowing" are talking about God knowing everything about this universe. Past, present, and future.And, a God that didn't know such things before the universe existed, but does know all such things after the universe existed - is still "all-knowing" as far as that universe is concerned.Since we live in the universe, and we are living at this current point in time - such a God would be "all knowing" for anything and everything about everyone - and we still all have free choice.It's just difficult to add in all those details when discussing it all the time - so it's easier to shorten it to "all knowing."
Just as it easier to say gravity affect "everything."Does it affect all things outside our universe? Maybe, maybe not - we don't know and can't say.
But, this doesn't stop us from saying gravity affects "everything" - because it's simple short-hand for a larger concept. The details can always be explained if someone's interested. It doesn't make the short-hand wrong.

I would suggest that it would easily be accepted by anyone who wants God's "all-knowing-ness" to be logically possible.
And that it would not easily be accepted by anyone who wants God's "all-knowing-ness" to be logically impossible.The fact is, it is a logical possibility (as much as "knowing the future" is logically possible...)
And it's certainly reasonable to label it as "all-knowing."Anyone's acceptance of it is up to them. Such conundrums exist for any imaginary idea around the issues of "knowing the future" or "time-travel."
-what are the limits?
-is any of it really possible?I think the scientific answer is, currently, "such ideas are not possible" in the first place - so it doesn't make much scientific sense in musing about what-ifs.However, if we're going to have a thought-exercise around the idea that God could have the power to "see the future" and then ask if this means it takes away our "free choice" (which also has it's own scientific-sense issues...) then the above conclusion is reasonable based within that framework.Edited by Stile, : Clarity

Eh. I'd rather not.I'll go as far as to say that imagining the possibility of a being that is "all-knowing" does not necessarily remove the ability for humans to have free-choice.But I'm not going to consider that such a thing is actually real.
And I'm certainly not going to consider that Revelations actually has "useful knowledge" to impart onto this subject.Well... technically I did consider them... years and years ago... but the Bible (and certainly Revelations) has proven themselves to be so full of holes and mistakes and wrong-ness and inaccuracies... they are known to be useless for "providing insight" about functional reality.

I suppose that would depend upon what the god is capable of.My claim is that "it is possible for there to be a being that creates the universe, is all-knowing, and us humans within that universe still have free-choice."
And I think I've explained how that's possible.My answer to you would be that this god would be all-knowing about everything within the universe he created - and therefore, to us within the universe, this god is "all-knowing."This does not require the same god to be "all-knowing" outside of our universe that he created.
Although, whether this god is not all-knowing outside of our universe by a limitation that he's not powerful enough... or possibly because of his own choice (he's powerful enough to limit his own all-knowing-ness for a moment in order to create a universe where free-choice exists...)... would be a question on this god's power abilities.My claim of "it is possible for there to be a being that creates the universe, is all-knowing, and us humans within that universe still have free-choice" would be fine with either version of the god.

You're absolutely right.
If you define "all-knowing" in this manner... then the two cannot co-exist.But, I'm also absolutely right.
If you define "all-knowing" as "being able to know all pieces of information at all times within our universe" - which is, really, a perfectly acceptable definition of the term "all-knowing" as far as we're concerned... since, you know, because we're inside this universe......then it's fine.If you find the point you're making important.. which is, really, absolutely of no relevance whatsoever to any being (like humans) that exist within our universe... you're right.If we define the scope to be "our universe" (because this is what we're limited to anyway) - then I'm right.I don't care how you choose to define it.But you can't say my way is logically impossible - because it certainly is logically possible. By making the choices free.
By limiting the "all-knowing" part to only be referring to within our universe. For at least the moment of creation of our universe, anyway.

Sure.
I don't care what it's called. I just want to point out that it's logically possible. Okay.
So - maybe God is "finished intervening in our universe" at the moment of creation of our universe.
Or maybe God can foresee all the results of his future-intervening, and our free-willed-changing-of-our-decisions-because-of-it all when He creates the universe.
If God can create universes and choose (by momentarily limiting his own future-knowing-power) to allow free-will - why can't He also be capable of doing this in recursive iterations?Doesn't seem like a big problem. Just "okay you did that - now, do it again!" For a powerful-enough God, why can't the answer just be... "um.... okay?" That would also fulfill the conditions, yes. I'm not versed well enough in the subject to comment (I don't comfortably understand what "libertarian free will" includes and excludes.)But, I can say this:
I don't see how choosing pink lemonade over white lemonade - in a "the decision emanated from my human body/brain, and not by another being controlling me" sort of way would be logically impossible, though.Which is the kind of "free choice" I'm thinking of.

I agree.
Which is why I found it strange that some were saying it was impossible.And power attributed to God? - Eh... I don't really care.
I don't think God even exists.
So, to me, any and all conversations "about God" are all based on mere "logical possibilities" and are nothing more than thought-experiments.Basically... if we're going to make up an imaginary God to fulfill the Christian Religion requirements (or any other religion...) why not make one up that could also fulfill whatever-other-requirements anyone's interested in talking about? Maybe.What if God creates a thought-experiment-universe that completely/exactly mirrors our universe (along with our free-willed choices)... but without physically creating that universe until all recursive-iterations are completed within the thought-experiment? And then, once all recursive-iterations are competed... He then creates the universe.To me... in order to continue the "integrity" of free-choice... it would only be allowed to be done once.
That is, let's say in God's thought-experiment recursions... He happens along some free-willed choices of humans that He doesn't like... so he does it again to see if things change... and they do... this, to me, kills what I'm thinking of as "free-choice" if God creates the 2nd, alterered-towards-God's-preferences universe instead of the initial as-originally-freely-chosen universe.Of course, this begs the question "what is a free choice?"If I freely choose pink lemonade over white... but if the choice is ran back, and I happen to freely choose white over pink...
Then let's say God prefers me to want white lemonade... so he "picks" this universe to create.Is my choice freely made or not?
Surely, it's controlled by God here in some way - but in what way does it matter?
If, when it was run again, I actually did freely choose white over pink the second time... isn't that still a "free choice" no matter if God "chooses" to create that universe?More definitions and meanings would be required in order to identify.Of course, the plot is clear if more information surrounds the situation:
Let's say I freely choose pink lemonade 30% of the time.
And I therefore choose white lemonade 70% of the time.If God "reruns" the recursion without caring which one I choose... and I happen to choose white lemonade the second time, and God chooses to go with this second universe for a reason other than me-choosing-white-lemonade... then perhaps my free choice is retained?But, if God "reruns" the recursion purposely over-and-over until I happen to choose white lemonade (for whatever God-reason...)... then I would say that my "free choice" on this decision has been removed or "controlled by another being."This would imply, according to my own personal definition of free-choice, that "free choice" is more of a per-choice basis thing, not a "binary attribute" that either must be on or off for all decisions. Which adds the complication that each and every choice, per choice-maker (human...) could be free or controlled... and even if God controls one decision, He may not necessarily be controlling other decisions.It would also mean that God may be able to rerun the recursions without affecting free-choice as long as He allows the choices to be made freely and His reason for rerunning the recursion is some non choice-affecting reason (like... maybe... if the sun explodes before any life-with-choosing-ability has even been created... so God reruns the universe differently...)Wait.What were we talking about?
Sorry, I got to rambling... I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that.
Maybe my rambling touched on it in some way? I agree.Although I'm not sure if I, personally, have an issue with "operating deterministically" actually stopping what I think of as "free will."
I have thought about this a bit... but not enough to come to any satisfying conclusions.
I generally get bored with the subject and move on before coming to any resolution on anything.
That's just a statement of what happens... not to imply that if I thought about it long enough I definitely would come to a "satisfying conclusion..." it's certainly possible that I'm just not smart enough to sort through this issue in a time frame that I find acceptable to spend on it Edited by Stile, : Spellings

I completely agree.My stake in this discussion was purely selfish - to point out that such a thing was possible. If anyone wants to take it and run with it (hopefully to somewhere interesting...) then that's up to them. Yes, God would know all our decisions "before creating the universe" (physically), but He would not know all our decisions before we made them - which is what I was trying to preserve.Therefore, this recursive-iteration thought-experiment then creation-of-physical universe idea allows for God's intervention in the universe while creating the universe and having God "all-knowing" within our universe (after it's creation) - all while preserving free choice. The physical creation of the universe becomes more of a "playing of the decided-upon tape" where God decided all the non-free-choice-decisions, and our free choices decided everything required for free choice to exist. Responsible for creating the universe? Pain and suffering? Joy and exhilaration? Death and destruction?
Yes, if that's what you're saying - I would agree that God would still be responsible for all these things, in this scenario. Agreed. Yes - agreed.
I came to this conclusion later in my ramblings.
Although I don't think I worded it quite as strongly - it certainly is something I fully agree with. Agreed - most certainly do not like that. I call that the "My Dad Can Beat Up Your Dad" theory.
I think the idea stems from the child-like pride/jealousy behaviour of "oh yeah? - well MY [[xxx idea here] is bigger/better/stronger than YOUR [[yyy idea here]"Starts with Dad's being stronger, or being able to beat the other up... finishes with God's being "all-powerful" or "all-knowing."
It falls directly in line with childish/immature/instinctual desires to "one-up" the "others."That, along with the problem of evil, are among the most obvious reasons (to me) that God does not exist.

True.But, if your disagreement lies upon the inability to accept made-up abilities of a made-up God in a made-up scenario...
I don't see any reason to come up with a more convincing explanation.It's all predicated on imaginary "what if's." What's one more? In the sense that, because God created the universe (at all..) then God is responsible for everything within it... I agree. Oooh... I never knew that.
Cool.
I was thinking more of the basic progression of animal gods (egyptian) - superhuman gods (roman/greek) - perfect gods (modern Christianity)

Is there?
I don't understand where the contradiction is.Here's the idea:

quote:

---

Therefore, this recursive-iteration thought-experiment then creation-of-physical universe idea allows for God's intervention in the universe while creating the universe and having God "all-knowing" within our universe (after it's creation) - all while preserving free choice. The physical creation of the universe becomes more of a "playing of the decided-upon tape" where God decided all the non-free-choice-decisions, and our free choices decided everything required for free choice to exist.

---

The point of this idea is for God to be "all knowing" (at a minimum - within our universe) and also have us retain free-will (by God 'not-knowing' the outcome of our decisions while going through the iterations of our universe depending on how many interventions He's going to make.) The whole point of the "thought experiment" is that it allows for God to intervene in our universe as often as He'd like, while running the universe "differently" from those points in order to retain our free will.This idea that the thought experiment "isn't real" is yours and has no grounds in the idea.Why can't it "be real?" That is, why can't it be an exact match of what we actually would freely choose when materially created?
If God's going to be the one materially creating us - why can't he also have the power to think of us before creating us?Just because you may find it uncomfortable, doesn't make it less "real" in any sense that matters.After all, these are all made-up powers about God.
If you'd like, I can simply specify that God's thought experiment contains the "real" choices of the humans finding themselves in those scenarios. We just don't experience any of the physical reality until the physical reality (...and ourselves) actually exist.

At 7, God thought up the universe he was going to create at 9am.
At 7, God did not know which path would be chosen.
At 7:01, after thinking up the universe and allowing all free-willed beings within the universe to make their free-willed choices within it - God is able to review those choices "in the future of that universe" and know the answer to your question while that being still has free choice. No. The universe the god has produced is a clockwork that will perform exactly as all the free-willed decisions have been decided by the free-willed inhabitants.

Yes - but "universe being created" no longer matters in respect to free will if we move the "universe's free-willed decisions being created" to another point in God's time.Why would it?This seems to be what you're missing, and it's the point that removes the contradiction you say is there. It isn't?
Then perhaps you are talking about "a contradiction" to something that is irrelevant to the point I'm making?
Because the point I'm making is that God can create a universe, while intervening within that universe, while also allowing free will to exist within that universe.
Which inherently revolves around "arguing about free will." If the thought experiment includes the real free will decisions as decided by the real free willed inhabitants... and it's just the physical parts of the universe that aren't real yet... this, again, removes the contradiction.How could this happen?
I have no idea - but, logically, it could happen.
Let's say God's powerful enough to make it happen.Poof.Magic is fun!Of course, I'm not claiming that any of this is actually possible (I don't think it's even actually possible for God to exist... let alone have any "powers" at all...)So, as long as we're making up a God, and making up imaginary powers for Him (like "creating universes at all") - I'll just give Him one more imaginary power:
-the power to create the real free will decisions of inhabitants within a soon-to-be-real-universe within a thought-experiment universe before he actually creates the real physical universe. I understand.The point, and my question, is: Why are you insisting on this?
Why can't an imaginary God, that already has the imaginary-and-impossible-to-explain power of "creating universes" also have the imaginary-and-impossible-to-explain power of "creating a thought experiment universe that contains all real free will decisions of a soon-to-be-created physically real universe?"It's like you accept that Wile E Coyote can fall off a 1000 ft cliff and survive... but you don't want to accept that he can have dynamite explode in his face and survive.Why not? It's all made up. Nope.If you're going to insist on this - why not insist that it's all off because God isn't real in the first place?
If you're going to accept the imaginary concept of God being real and see where that leads us... then why not also accept this power-concept of God being real and see where that leads us as well?You're creating an imaginary barrier just because it's one you're not familiar with. That's the "magic" of this power of God's... the thought-experiment free will decisions ARE the "real free will decisions of the people as created in the physical universe" therefore, it's impossible for them to be different. The "real physical universe" is just a physical playing out of the people's "real free willed decisions."

But God did not make the choice of how the actual universe would go.
He made lots of the choices (ones that aren't affected by our free will, like if a mountain should be this big or this small...) but we were the ones who made our free will choices.As well, sure - God may very well have to bear responsibility for creating the universe. That seems correct. But that's not my point, my point is that God (if powerful enough/correctly) can create a world where He knows the past/present/future and free will still exists. Example:Two men are working on a renovation.
One paints a room, but doesn't tell the other.
The second man comes in to the room, and is tired... there's a wall and a counter. This second man decides to lean on the wall. He gets paint all over him.The first man is responsible for creating the wet paint.
The second man still made a free-will decision to lean on the wall and not the counter.Responsibility does not necessarily remove free will. Not at all.Especially if we define a power for God during the creation of this universe that our choices are used - choices He did not know the outcome for - before creating the universe using those choices.No contradiction. Why not?You're telling me Wile E Coyote can fall off a 1000 ft cliff and survive, but he can't survive a stick of dynamite to the face.We are making this up.If we are making it up that God can create universes... than we can also make up that God's process for this creation involves identifying our real, actual free-willed choices before we physically exist.Perhaps if I phrase it in an if/then format:qIf it is possible (somehow, somewhere...) for God to identify our actual free-willed choices before we physically exist, and then create the physical universe based on those free-willed choices that we made.... then, our free will is preserved.I agree with you that if this is not possible - then free will cannot be preserved.
But, what I'm saying, is that if we imagine if this is possible... then free will can be preserved.Just as if we imagine Wile E Coyote surviving a stick of dynamite to the face... then we can make the cartoon where it happens. What if the thought experiment is the actual universe, just not in physical form?
That this universe is just the physical form of that actual universe?You seem to be insisting on details that do not required insistence... unless you simply do not want to consider the possibility. Because it comes from the free-willed choosers, not God. God simply requests the information, and gets it from us.
Perhaps you think there is some sort of "time-based issue" here - but what if God has a way around it that we cannot explain right not?What if God actually can get the information from the real, actual us... and then create the physical universe?If that's possible... then this situation is possible.
If it's not... then it's not.Speculation on "how it would work.." is akin to speculation on "how Wile E Coyote survives a stick of dynamite to the face."That's the power ("magic") of making things up.