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Author | Topic: Did the Flood really happen? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: If you’re going to have a human Noah, your Flood will be less than a million years ago. So that’s a problem for you. Are you really going to make Noah a habiline? An Australopithecine?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: A early hominid is likely to be even shorter-lived. As well as being considerably less intelligent than the more recent species. And let us not forget that we are all supposedly descended from Noah. Of course, Noah’s age is one of the elements that tells us we are dealing with myth, not history. So taking it as fact is a mistake.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: And you haven’t got to the point where it is anything like a strong possibility. Not to mention that there are other elements of the story that are scientifically problematic.
quote: This is a science thread so we can’t just assume that the age attributed to Noah is fact. We must consider other, more reasonable explanations first. I suspect that most of the old ages in Genesis are a result of confusing months with years. Almost all of them are reasonable if divided by twelve. Noah’s 600 years, then would become 50.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: You vaguely hint rather than say. That’s not a good way to discuss. Also, your posts are way too short and lacking in argument to build a case.
quote: Where is the evidence that it happened suddenly? Where is the evidence that it was sufficient to cover all the land? Without these you have not established it as a strong possibility And why would we conclude that this flood - if it happened - was Noah’s Flood? Indeed it would seem to more closely match the hypothetical catastrophe proposed by Gap theory.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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quote: There is certainly a need for more explanation in your posts, if you are trying to build an argument.
quote: By your own statements much of the water was NOT generated underground. Nor have you given a reason why it would suddenly be released to the surface - or why that would be a one-time event, rather than a series of such events separated in time. I guess that all those words you left out were rather necessary after all.
quote: So you say. But I am sure you can provide much more than you have given, without the condescension.
quote: Why is that evidence of a global flood? More words you should have provided and didn’t.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: This does not seem adequate to show that it is even likely that there would be a single massive release. It seems more likely to me that if there were catastrophic releases they would be localised and spread over a long period of time. Or - as seems more likely to me volcanoes might release large amounts of water as vapour, which I understand is the more usual way. And, of course, as you argued the Earth has more water than can be accounted for by terrestrial sources, and this additional water would not be trapped as you describe.
quote: I think that even a professional geologist would agree with me that you have not made any case for a single release of this water, producing a sudden global flood. Because you obviously haven’t, even to me. So drop the condescension until you actually have a real argument.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: That it could in principle happen does not mean that it has happened. And it certainly does not mean that it was all saved up for one single global event.
quote: Or, as is far more likely, it never happened.
quote: You’re supposed to be backing up your claim that the Flood was a strong possibility. Until you manage to do that it’s rather inappropriate to assume that it did happen. Indeed, since your flood is clearly not the Biblical Flood you should probably take it to a different thread. There is no chance of Noah living 600 years in the Hadean (I’d be surprised if he lasted 600 seconds).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Certainly not. I’m simply pointing out that essential elements of the Flood story would be absent in your version.
quote: That must be very embarrassing to you, then, for your arguments to be so easily seen to be empty.
quote: Depends on what you mean by Biblically. Oh, I probably can, but if it involves foolish assumptions I probably won’t. If it’s at all theological you’d best start another thread which will be placed in an appropriate forum.
quote: Your question is too unclear to answer. However this topic is about Noah’s Flood, so if you were arguing about some other flood you’re doing it in the wrong place.
quote: I can do rather more as you’ve seen. However if all you can do is pretend to have good arguments pointing out your failures is all that is required.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Now you’ve explained the question the answer is easy - except that you are wrong. God promised Noah he wouldn’t flood the Earth again, but that doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be earlier Floods. And your Flood would have to be earlier. So why don’t you actually go back to trying to show that your Flood is the strong possibility that you claimed ? Or is this latest diversion a tacit admission that you can’t.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: The question was about the Bible not geology. But if there was only one global scale flood (and you haven’t even made a scientific case for even one) and if it took place at a time when no humans could exist, then obviously the Biblical Flood story cannot be literally true. Which sensible people already know.
quote: And this is just silly. You can’t show it to be true and it wouldn’t matter if you could. What you are doing is just bad apologetics with a smattering of science. You really need to learn how to make rational arguments.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Then provide the scientific evidence that humans could be alive at the time of your proposed Flood.
quote: I’m not. I’m trying to determine if it is reasonable to say that your proposed Flood is the one being discussed in this thread. And it seems that it is not.
quote: Or there was no global flood in the history of the Earth, which seems more likely to me.
quote: This thread is fine, because if your Flood is not Noah’s Flood discussion of it should be moved to another topic.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: No. You are free to add more evidence to change my mind - if you have any. But so far you haven’t exactly come up with a lot. If you haven’t got any scientific reasons to think it is even possible for there to be a Noah, or other people or animals to be taken on board the Ark - or even wood to build the Ark - at the supposed time of your supposed Flood, why are you even trying to argue it here?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I did have several comments. I pointed out that first yourself argued that a significant quantity of Earth’s water could not originate by your preferred means. I pointed out that your idea that a large part of the water burst out from solid rocks - as liquid, rather than being released through volcanic eruptions as vapour was unsupported, I pointed out that your idea that the idea that this water was all released at the same time was implausible and unsupported. You have not answered these points.
quote: There is no need for further questions, only for you to provide much better evidence. I will also note that none of this feeble evidence supports the idea that Noah, or any multicellular life was - or could be - living on Earth at the supposed time of this supposed flood. (I’d be surprised if there was eukaryotic life if I have the time frame right).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I certainly did Message 1999And, of course, as you argued the Earth has more water than can be accounted for by terrestrial sources... quote: Why would I point out an obvious problem in your arguments? That’s a part of my role in the discussion. We aren’t here to pretend that you’re right.
quote: It certainly is. Why else would you attribute all the Earth’s water to a mechanism you know to be inadequate to account for it all?
quote: No, material does arrive on Earth from beyond the atmosphere and geologists recognise that.
quote: A significant proportion comes from objects that were formed in the outer solar system (where more water collected). It is still debated exactly which objects provided the bulk of that water (either ice meteorites or larger bodies or the planet Theia that collided with the Earth, in the collision that formed the moon). Geologists would agree.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: That is the generally accepted scientific view, so I think it’s been accounted for. Besides what explanation do you have as you admit that there is too much water.
quote: Both the Moon and Mars had more water than they do now, and lost it to space. We know this. Venus is incredibly hot, due to a runaway greenhouse effect to it won’t have liquid water. And apparently it’s lack of a magnetosphere has lead to it, too losing water to space, through the solar wind.
quote: I’ve already given reasons why they have less water now. And you have yet to make a convincing case for the Earth experiencing a global flood.
quote: The fact that we know that there is water ice out there in space rather acts against that. Unless you have actual evidence for this mechanism - and if you do you should present it to the geologists - I don’t think it’s a starter. Also you’d have to explain why it would be restricted to Earth.
quote: Since you don’t have any significant scientific evidence for this flood, nor any scientific reason to believe that this is the Flood that this topic is discussing, maybe you should start a new topic where you can make theological arguments since they seem to be the meat of your case.
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