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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
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Message 1981 of 2370 (880304)
08-01-2020 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1980 by Juvenissun
08-01-2020 10:37 AM


Re: Time scales
quote:
But, like I said, the current landforms are mostly younger than one million years
If you’re going to have a human Noah, your Flood will be less than a million years ago. So that’s a problem for you. Are you really going to make Noah a habiline? An Australopithecine?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1980 by Juvenissun, posted 08-01-2020 10:37 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1984 by Juvenissun, posted 08-01-2020 3:01 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1986 of 2370 (880313)
08-01-2020 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1984 by Juvenissun
08-01-2020 3:01 PM


Re: Time scales
quote:
A normal human being is not likely to be 600 years old as Noah was
A early hominid is likely to be even shorter-lived. As well as being considerably less intelligent than the more recent species.
And let us not forget that we are all supposedly descended from Noah.
Of course, Noah’s age is one of the elements that tells us we are dealing with myth, not history. So taking it as fact is a mistake.

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 Message 1984 by Juvenissun, posted 08-01-2020 3:01 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1988 by Juvenissun, posted 08-01-2020 3:22 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1989 of 2370 (880317)
08-01-2020 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1988 by Juvenissun
08-01-2020 3:22 PM


Re: Time scales
quote:
My whole point till now is to say: Geologically, a global flood is a strong possibility, not a myth.
And you haven’t got to the point where it is anything like a strong possibility. Not to mention that there are other elements of the story that are scientifically problematic.
quote:
How to put Noah into the explanation? Since we do not understand how could human live that long, then we have to deal with the problem of TIME, not flood.
This is a science thread so we can’t just assume that the age attributed to Noah is fact. We must consider other, more reasonable explanations first.
I suspect that most of the old ages in Genesis are a result of confusing months with years. Almost all of them are reasonable if divided by twelve. Noah’s 600 years, then would become 50.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1988 by Juvenissun, posted 08-01-2020 3:22 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1991 by Juvenissun, posted 08-01-2020 8:46 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1993 of 2370 (880321)
08-02-2020 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1991 by Juvenissun
08-01-2020 8:46 PM


Re: Time scales
quote:
I said and you do not listen.
You vaguely hint rather than say. That’s not a good way to discuss. Also, your posts are way too short and lacking in argument to build a case.
quote:
A lot of water suddenly showed up on the surface of the earth and inundated the low-relief land. This is a nutshell of the story.
Where is the evidence that it happened suddenly?
Where is the evidence that it was sufficient to cover all the land?
Without these you have not established it as a strong possibility
And why would we conclude that this flood - if it happened - was Noah’s Flood? Indeed it would seem to more closely match the hypothetical catastrophe proposed by Gap theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1991 by Juvenissun, posted 08-01-2020 8:46 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1995 by Juvenissun, posted 08-02-2020 8:24 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1997 of 2370 (880325)
08-02-2020 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1995 by Juvenissun
08-02-2020 8:24 AM


Re: Time scales
quote:
My posts were short because there is no need to give more than what I said. If one can respond to what I said, then I will continue. Otherwise, I won't spend time to say even one word more than needed.
There is certainly a need for more explanation in your posts, if you are trying to build an argument.
quote:
The increase of surface water on the earth has two possible patterns: gradually, include episodic; or suddenly. When consider the processes of water generation, it is more likely the water would first accumulate underground and then suddenly released to the surface.
By your own statements much of the water was NOT generated underground. Nor have you given a reason why it would suddenly be released to the surface - or why that would be a one-time event, rather than a series of such events separated in time.
I guess that all those words you left out were rather necessary after all.
quote:
You can reason or ask question. But it is not appropriate for you to ask evidence. Because you won't understand.
So you say. But I am sure you can provide much more than you have given, without the condescension.
quote:
For example, one major evidence is that mantle rock of the earth has various amount (but not consistent) of water content. (Do you still like to see the evidence of that? There are tons of petrological papers related to it.)
Why is that evidence of a global flood? More words you should have provided and didn’t.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1995 by Juvenissun, posted 08-02-2020 8:24 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1998 by Juvenissun, posted 08-02-2020 2:59 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1999 of 2370 (880333)
08-02-2020 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1998 by Juvenissun
08-02-2020 2:59 PM


Re: Time scales
quote:
The key answer is: Magma solidified much faster than the making of free water, which is produced by separating itself from magma. So, water can only be sealed underneath thick layers of rock, until the critical moment of eruption.
This does not seem adequate to show that it is even likely that there would be a single massive release. It seems more likely to me that if there were catastrophic releases they would be localised and spread over a long period of time. Or - as seems more likely to me volcanoes might release large amounts of water as vapour, which I understand is the more usual way.
And, of course, as you argued the Earth has more water than can be accounted for by terrestrial sources, and this additional water would not be trapped as you describe.
quote:
I am sure it is hard for you to understand (it is a graduate level stuff)
I think that even a professional geologist would agree with me that you have not made any case for a single release of this water, producing a sudden global flood. Because you obviously haven’t, even to me. So drop the condescension until you actually have a real argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1998 by Juvenissun, posted 08-02-2020 2:59 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2000 by Juvenissun, posted 08-02-2020 10:02 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2001 of 2370 (880338)
08-03-2020 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2000 by Juvenissun
08-02-2020 10:02 PM


Re: Time scales
quote:
Think about a bomb, when the powder is ignited inside the shell and the first crack showed up on the shell, would the pressurized gases released in pulses or exploded once for all? If you understand the way that diamond is push from the mantle to the surface (we never witnessed that process either), then you can imagine a similar water releasing process. (if you like, google "kimberlite diatreme")
That it could in principle happen does not mean that it has happened. And it certainly does not mean that it was all saved up for one single global event.
quote:
We can never prove what exactly happened when the water came out of the earth because we were not there and the flood will never happen again. But, the net consequence is that enough water showed up on the surface of the earth and flooded the whole earth.
Or, as is far more likely, it never happened.
quote:
Another thing needs to be considered together is that the flood water needs to go back to some place we called it ocean today. How do you think we can get ocean basins large enough to take all the flood water back?
You’re supposed to be backing up your claim that the Flood was a strong possibility. Until you manage to do that it’s rather inappropriate to assume that it did happen.
Indeed, since your flood is clearly not the Biblical Flood you should probably take it to a different thread. There is no chance of Noah living 600 years in the Hadean (I’d be surprised if he lasted 600 seconds).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2000 by Juvenissun, posted 08-02-2020 10:02 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2002 by Juvenissun, posted 08-03-2020 7:34 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2003 of 2370 (880340)
08-03-2020 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 2002 by Juvenissun
08-03-2020 7:34 AM


Re: Time scales
quote:
Now you start to simply denying.
Certainly not. I’m simply pointing out that essential elements of the Flood story would be absent in your version.
quote:
You can not argue the flood scientifically,
That must be very embarrassing to you, then, for your arguments to be so easily seen to be empty.
quote:
... do you think you can handle the Flood Biblically? That is another additional BIG issue.
Depends on what you mean by Biblically. Oh, I probably can, but if it involves foolish assumptions I probably won’t. If it’s at all theological you’d best start another thread which will be placed in an appropriate forum.
quote:
Give a try: What do you think that the Bible says the Global Flood can only take place ONCE in the whole earth history?
Your question is too unclear to answer. However this topic is about Noah’s Flood, so if you were arguing about some other flood you’re doing it in the wrong place.
quote:
You can deny it again. That is about all you can do.
I can do rather more as you’ve seen. However if all you can do is pretend to have good arguments pointing out your failures is all that is required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2002 by Juvenissun, posted 08-03-2020 7:34 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2004 by Juvenissun, posted 08-03-2020 12:43 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2005 of 2370 (880351)
08-03-2020 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2004 by Juvenissun
08-03-2020 12:43 PM


Re: Time scales
quote:
Give a try: What do you think that the Bible says the Global Flood can only take place ONCE in the whole earth history?
Now you’ve explained the question the answer is easy - except that you are wrong. God promised Noah he wouldn’t flood the Earth again, but that doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be earlier Floods. And your Flood would have to be earlier.
So why don’t you actually go back to trying to show that your Flood is the strong possibility that you claimed ? Or is this latest diversion a tacit admission that you can’t.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2004 by Juvenissun, posted 08-03-2020 12:43 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2006 by Juvenissun, posted 08-03-2020 4:55 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2007 of 2370 (880367)
08-03-2020 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2006 by Juvenissun
08-03-2020 4:55 PM


Re: Time scales
quote:
No. Geologically, there could only be ONE global scale flood. And there is a need to have one to make the earth earth. It is all about the water budget of planet earth.
The question was about the Bible not geology. But if there was only one global scale flood (and you haven’t even made a scientific case for even one) and if it took place at a time when no humans could exist, then obviously the Biblical Flood story cannot be literally true. Which sensible people already know.
quote:
In other word, other planets in the solar system do not have a global flood, which only showed up once.
And this is just silly. You can’t show it to be true and it wouldn’t matter if you could.
What you are doing is just bad apologetics with a smattering of science. You really need to learn how to make rational arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2006 by Juvenissun, posted 08-03-2020 4:55 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2008 by Juvenissun, posted 08-03-2020 7:57 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2009 of 2370 (880372)
08-04-2020 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2008 by Juvenissun
08-03-2020 7:57 PM


Re: Time scales
quote:
Of course Noah was there
Then provide the scientific evidence that humans could be alive at the time of your proposed Flood.
quote:
But that is another question and you do not mix that with the current question of a global flood
I’m not. I’m trying to determine if it is reasonable to say that your proposed Flood is the one being discussed in this thread. And it seems that it is not.
quote:
There was one, and only one global flood in the history of the earth.
Or there was no global flood in the history of the Earth, which seems more likely to me.
quote:
If you like to put Noah and the Flood together, make another thread about Noah, and I will be there.
This thread is fine, because if your Flood is not Noah’s Flood discussion of it should be moved to another topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2008 by Juvenissun, posted 08-03-2020 7:57 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2010 by Juvenissun, posted 08-04-2020 7:40 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2012 of 2370 (880375)
08-04-2020 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 2010 by Juvenissun
08-04-2020 7:40 AM


Re: Time scales
quote:
You apparently blocked the possibility of continuing discussion
No. You are free to add more evidence to change my mind - if you have any. But so far you haven’t exactly come up with a lot.
If you haven’t got any scientific reasons to think it is even possible for there to be a Noah, or other people or animals to be taken on board the Ark - or even wood to build the Ark - at the supposed time of your supposed Flood, why are you even trying to argue it here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2010 by Juvenissun, posted 08-04-2020 7:40 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2014 by Juvenissun, posted 08-04-2020 4:26 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2015 of 2370 (880394)
08-04-2020 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2014 by Juvenissun
08-04-2020 4:26 PM


Re: Time scales
quote:
I did give you some evidences, such as rocks, water, and pressure. You have no comment on them
I did have several comments.
I pointed out that first yourself argued that a significant quantity of Earth’s water could not originate by your preferred means.
I pointed out that your idea that a large part of the water burst out from solid rocks - as liquid, rather than being released through volcanic eruptions as vapour was unsupported,
I pointed out that your idea that the idea that this water was all released at the same time was implausible and unsupported.
You have not answered these points.
quote:
If you do not understand the evidences I gave, at least you can ask for clarification. Can't you even ask question?
There is no need for further questions, only for you to provide much better evidence.
I will also note that none of this feeble evidence supports the idea that Noah, or any multicellular life was - or could be - living on Earth at the supposed time of this supposed flood. (I’d be surprised if there was eukaryotic life if I have the time frame right).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2014 by Juvenissun, posted 08-04-2020 4:26 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2016 by Coragyps, posted 08-04-2020 5:09 PM PaulK has not replied
 Message 2019 by Juvenissun, posted 08-04-2020 7:54 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2020 of 2370 (880404)
08-05-2020 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2019 by Juvenissun
08-04-2020 7:54 PM


Re: Time scales
quote:
No. You did not do that.
I certainly did Message 1999
And, of course, as you argued the Earth has more water than can be accounted for by terrestrial sources...
quote:
Even you did that, what is your reason?
Why would I point out an obvious problem in your arguments? That’s a part of my role in the discussion. We aren’t here to pretend that you’re right.
quote:
It is not MY PREFERRED means
It certainly is. Why else would you attribute all the Earth’s water to a mechanism you know to be inadequate to account for it all?
quote:
Geologically, it is the only mean.
No, material does arrive on Earth from beyond the atmosphere and geologists recognise that.
quote:
Where do you think the ocean water come from?
A significant proportion comes from objects that were formed in the outer solar system (where more water collected). It is still debated exactly which objects provided the bulk of that water (either ice meteorites or larger bodies or the planet Theia that collided with the Earth, in the collision that formed the moon).
Geologists would agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2019 by Juvenissun, posted 08-04-2020 7:54 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2022 by Juvenissun, posted 08-05-2020 7:58 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2024 of 2370 (880408)
08-05-2020 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 2022 by Juvenissun
08-05-2020 7:58 AM


Re: Time scales
quote:
We can see two lines of evidence that go against what you said.
That is the generally accepted scientific view, so I think it’s been accounted for. Besides what explanation do you have as you admit that there is too much water.
quote:
First, neighboring celestial bodies like Mars, our moon, and Venus are all very dry (even consider environment in their early stage). Why should the earth be an exception?
Both the Moon and Mars had more water than they do now, and lost it to space. We know this.
Venus is incredibly hot, due to a runaway greenhouse effect to it won’t have liquid water. And apparently it’s lack of a magnetosphere has lead to it, too losing water to space, through the solar wind.
quote:
Second: None of the Mars, moon and Venus ever possible to have a global flood (do you know why?) Why is the earth so special?
I’ve already given reasons why they have less water now. And you have yet to make a convincing case for the Earth experiencing a global flood.
quote:
Both evidences pointed to a special mechanism of water generation on the earth. I have briefly explained that in several earlier posts. (basically it focused on the generation of continental rocks. Remember, the earth did not have any "land" at the beginning)
The fact that we know that there is water ice out there in space rather acts against that. Unless you have actual evidence for this mechanism - and if you do you should present it to the geologists - I don’t think it’s a starter. Also you’d have to explain why it would be restricted to Earth.
quote:
One lesson you should learn from talking to me: the possibility of the global flood is closely related to the origin (the formation) of both ocean water and continent. It is not just a simple water budget problem.
Since you don’t have any significant scientific evidence for this flood, nor any scientific reason to believe that this is the Flood that this topic is discussing, maybe you should start a new topic where you can make theological arguments since they seem to be the meat of your case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2022 by Juvenissun, posted 08-05-2020 7:58 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2028 by Juvenissun, posted 08-05-2020 2:39 PM PaulK has replied

  
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