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Author | Topic: The Trump Presidency | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
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Buzzfeed reports Videos Appear to Show Federal Officers Shooting and Macing Reporters and Legal Observers, Despite a Judge’s Order US District Judge Michael Simon entered a temporary restraining order on July 23 that blocks federal officers from arresting or using physical force against clearly marked journalists and legal observers in Portland. In first-person declarations filed in court on Tuesday, legal observers and reporters described being shot at and maced, and in some instances they provided video footage of the incidents. And Lawfare blog reports on cases filed against the Federal Government Litigating the Federal Government’s Conduct in Portland Protests It includes the case mentioned by Buzzfeed and others - I’ll quote two I find especially clear from the information available in the article.
On July 17, Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum brought suit in the U.S. District Court for the District of Oregon on behalf of the State of Oregon, its agencies and its citizens under the doctrine of parens patriaea type of standing that allows state attorneys general to litigate on behalf of their state citizensagainst DHS, Customs and Border Protection, the Marshals, and Federal Protective Service. The complaint alleged that federal law enforcement officers in military fatigues had been driving around downtown Portland in unmarked vehicles and detaining protestors. It also included specific allegations of the arrest of Mark Pettibone, who was allegedly confronted by armed men dressed in camouflage who took him off the street, pushed him into a van, put him into a cell and read his rights but did not tell him why he was arrested or provide him with a lawyer. He was later released with no paperwork, citation or record of the arrest. On July 22, Perkins Coie and the ACLU of Oregon brought a lawsuit in the District Court of Oregon on behalf of individual protest medics against the City of Portland, DHS, the U.S. Marshals Service and individual officers. The complaint is brought by four protest medics who typically display large red crosses on their clothing and provide medical services to demonstrators, including: distributing eye wash and eye wipes to protestors in anticipation of tear gas attacks, offering personal protective equipment so that protestors can observe COVID-19 physical distancing protocols, ensuring that protestors remain adequately hydrated and fed, and rendering direct care when police injure protestors. The plaintiffs allege that officers have intentionally targeted and retaliated against protest medics and injured the individual plaintiffs, including shooting rubber bullets at a medic providing aid to a protester on a bench.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: None of which excuses the police brutality against those who were not rioting.
quote: They don’t seem to have helped much.
quote: In other words you are going to ignore all the reports of peaceful protestors getting tear gassed. You know, covering up the problems never leads to a solution.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Is it? In every case? There isn’t one where the police - or federal officers - didn’t attack people who were clearly peaceful ?
quote: I’m not covering up anything.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Attacking peaceful protestors does nothing to preserve the social order.
quote: I don’t see how you can get that out of attacking people who were clearly peaceful.
quote: And now you are just making things up.
quote: Even if that is true, if the complaints are justifiable they have the right to complain and protest. But I’m hardly convinced that it is true, given the ongoing instances of police brutality.
quote: So you get to declare peaceful protest illegitimate and that justifies the use of violence to suppress it.
quote: And we get to see who really lumps everyone on the other side together. Funny how it’s illegitimate when you pretend I’m doing it but just fine when you do it.
quote: You’ve decided that they’re all guilty and deserve it - without looking at the evidence - and anyone who disagrees is covering it up. Thanks for illustrating the problem with the police in America.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Who says that the use of tear gas is restricted to ‘actual riots? We know that the lower grades of tear gas were used on peaceful protestors in Washington when Trump wanted to go out to deliver a speech.
quote: My demands? How about more efforts to stop the police brutality. And your opinions of the demonstrators does not remove their right to peacefully demonstrate nor does it justify the intentional targeting of journalists, legal observers or people giving medical aid away from the violence.
quote: That’s what you say.
quote: But I don’r do that, do I? What you mean is that I refuse to join you in endorsing police thuggery.
quote: And too many police are on that side. Ever think about that?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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quote: And? I was saying that the police - or federal agents - shouldn’t be attacking obviously peaceful protestors. Please explain how your question fits into that.
quote: What I want is more restraint in it’s use. Which by the reports I’ve seen is obviously needed.
quote: I can make a few suggestions. Better training, especially in deescalating situations. Less militarisation. More firing of guilty officers, more checks on hires so they can’t just walk into another police job, more willingness of other officers to testify against them.
quote: Well that’s rather odd, since I haven’t seen any sign of you acknowledging wrongdoing on the part of the police up to now.
quote: Even if that were true - and what I’ve seen makes it unlikely - they still have the right to peacefully protest. Physically attacking them is not the answer.
quote:quote: That’s what the headline says. It’s not what the quoted messages say (one mentions fighting which may be meant literally, but another announces a COVID-mindful picnic). And there’s very little mention of bussing people in. The vast majority just look like people calling for peaceful protests. The fact that your source is pretty far-right makes it’s editorialising rather suspect, too.
...has been criticized for releasing misinformation and articles written by fake personas,[1] for employing an editor with ties to white supremacist-platforming and pro-Kremlin media outlets,[2] and for opaque funding and political connections Wikipedia I wouldn’t claim to know something just because such a source said so.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: What you wrote didn’t look like agreement, it looked like making up excuses to justify attacking obviously peaceful protestors. This is the first point where you’ve said you agree.
quote: Maybe. But that’s going to be difficult in the middle of a riot and even worse if there are innocent people caught up in it.
quote: Once the police are under sustained attack, or other people,present are being attacked. A few missiles aimed at police shouldn’t be sufficient. And certainly not for clearing peaceful protestors out of Trump’s way.
quote: I was, of course, referring to this discussion.
[quote]If it were true? It is true, despite the leftwing media's attempt to deny it. Its subterfuge, Paul. And you cavalier dismissal of its relevance is actually hilarious.
quote: Pointing out that their evidence does not support their claim IS addressing the substance.
quote: No, it isn’t. I referred to the supposed evidence provided by your source. Are you going to claim that it all really means something other than what it says? That is MUST be read as supporting the claims of your source ?
quote: Well I guess you had to get out one last hypocritical lie.
quote: I will not wish you the same, since your fantasies are there to justify violence and repression.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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And let’s just add. The protests in Portland last night were peaceful.
Perhaps it was because the demonstrators weren’t attacked by federal agents.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote:So one stabbing, no riot. quote: Oh it’s quite sensible. Violence will trigger violence.
quote: It really doesn’t matter. There’s no certainty of prediction here. You can’t know what would have happened the previous night if the Feds hadn’t opened up with the tear gas (according to a report I’ve seen the Feds were the ones to open the attack that night).
quote: I’ve been concentrating on those that were wrongfully attacked, while admitting that there were others there. Do you class Antifa (a label, not an organisation) among the former or the latter? Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
The Oregonian
Clashes between police and protesters were absent Friday from downtown Portland for the second straight night Demetria Hester leads a group of self-identified mothers who have become a fixture at the protests. She led a march to the demonstrations Friday and remained there for hours, calling out people whose actions might provoke police. Speakers at the rally reiterated their grievances over what they consider a disproportionate law-enforcement response to protesters, particularly in recent weeks. The value of human life matters more than graffiti on a building, one person said. Human life matters more than rattling a fence. And they have some commitments from local government The Oregonian 28 July The effort has enough momentum that a special legislative session planned for later this summer that was anticipated to focus solely on balancing the state budget could now include proposals to demilitarize police, eliminate legalized slavery from the state’s constitution and to strengthen the state’s fair housing laws, among other bills. Never rely on the propaganda from the far-right.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: For a start the Fourth Amendment right not to be arrested without adequate cause. Simply accusing the victims of crimes without adequate evidence as you are doing is not sufficient. In fact it’s evil.
quote: You may think you live in a police state but you don’t. Police authority is not unlimited. That can’t just give any orders they like and expect to be obeyed.
quote: Well I’m glad something I said got through, but you still haven’t noticed that in this case they did NOT have adequate grounds for suspicion. Or in fact have any real suspicion.
quote: In this case, because they said so.
quote: There was no booking hearing. Are you suggesting that the police simply need to avoid that to get away with illegal detention? (The way you argue it’s quite possible you do).
quote: And there’s an example. You can certainly point out that the arrest is illegal right there. That’s not a crime even if some cops would treat it as one. And there are further options later, right up to filing a civil case.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: That’s an odd thing to say when the Feds moved to other cities. However this has nothing to do with my point that there were genuine protestors at Portland all the way through, and your assertions to the contrary were false. So I take your new allegations with a grain of salt.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I’m shifting the goalposts? YOU started talking about other cities:
At the time of this posting, other cities were ratcheted up, as ANTIFA commuted to different cities in which is to besiege quote: I suggested that they were contributing to the violence. And again, you ignore the central point that there were peaceful protestors in Portland all along.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: The arrest of Mark Pettibone referenced previously.
quote: I.e. there are restrictions on the orders they can give, just as I said.
quote: And if no affidavit is filed?
quote: Saying that the arrest is illegal is a crime? Really? Your quote says nothing about that.
quote: At least we know who the violent thugs are now. If you’ll beat up people for simply saying things you don’t like that proves it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
[quote]Where does the Fourth Amendment say anything about being arrested?
[quote]It says that the citizens should be secure in their persons against unreasonable seizures.
quote: Don’t forget that there is a huge body of case law as well as the statutes. And the fact that you have trouble understanding 18th Century law doesn’t get them off the hook.
quote: Since we know that the officers admitted that they didn’t have grounds for an arrest it isn’t just my opinion.
quote: Since Mark Pettibone wasn’t suspected of a crime when taken into custody or interviewed about anything that he had done or supposedly done this is irrelevant. But the idea that the illegality should be handled at the booking hearing is absurd when there was no booking or hearing.
quote: Indeed. You think you can take rights away be making up excuses.
quote: By which you mean you can make false accusations and expect the police to act on them. Again we are talking about the kidnap of a man who was not suspected of any crime.
quote: By which you mean that you want actual peaceful protestors arrested on false charges.
quote: You assume that leaving will be easy. It may not even be possBible.
quote: As a matter of fact that isn’t taught as a subject over here. Nevertheless saying that an arrest is illegal would seem to be protected by the First Amendment and does not seem to qualify as resisting arrest by any reasonable standard. Despite what you say. And if it is, too bad for your country.
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