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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


(2)
Message 2506 of 3207 (880476)
08-06-2020 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2503 by Phat
08-06-2020 12:15 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
But what is your concept of a god? If you believe in a god because you have experienced it, that is logical, in the sense that you have sensed it and so think it is there. That's fine, so far as it goes.
But what is god? The god of Moses? The god of the KJV? The god as conceived by the deists who founded the United States? We must know what a thing is before we can decide whether or not it is logical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2503 by Phat, posted 08-06-2020 12:15 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2507 by FLRW, posted 08-06-2020 6:08 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
FLRW
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 2507 of 3207 (880494)
08-06-2020 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2506 by Sarah Bellum
08-06-2020 1:13 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
The word 'God' is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this.- Albert Einstein 1954

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2506 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-06-2020 1:13 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2512 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-08-2020 4:17 PM FLRW has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2508 of 3207 (880520)
08-07-2020 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2503 by Phat
08-06-2020 12:15 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
To some, a universe that began with nothing more than chemicals makes more sense than a Creator.
Phat what chemicals are you talking about? You have heard as many times as I have that there is nothing outside of the universe. Meaning it was a self contained universe as cavediver told us. So logically speaking there was non existence. Logically if there is non existence there is no universe to expand. That means Stephen Hawking was wrong when he concluded he had proved there was no need for a God. Logically speaking no God no universe, but we are here. Positive proof that there is a God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2503 by Phat, posted 08-06-2020 12:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2516 by Phat, posted 08-11-2020 6:54 AM ICANT has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 2509 of 3207 (880522)
08-07-2020 2:33 AM


to know god one must think like a child
EvC Forum: the day the sun danced in the sky
you know that God does not exist, but I know he does. he reveals himself to those who would dare to think as children, to be radically open to a loving god, to be radically open to love.
to see god you have to learn to see through your heart.

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2510 of 3207 (880546)
08-07-2020 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2505 by Sarah Bellum
08-06-2020 1:06 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
Could you give me an example of a thing ... which you would consider illogical?
I have asked you many times to specify which rules of logic are broken by the idea of God. Something that is illogical is something that breaks the rules of logic. Conclusions that arise from false premises or that depend on logical fallacies are illogical. It would be illogical to conclude that all dogs are brown from the premise that one dog is brown.
So again, what rules of logic does the idea of God violate?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2505 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-06-2020 1:06 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2511 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-08-2020 4:11 PM ringo has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 2511 of 3207 (880634)
08-08-2020 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2510 by ringo
08-07-2020 12:28 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
A person who sees thin ice, thinner than ice that, in their experience, people have always fallen through, nevertheless says, "I'm going to walk across this!" Is that "illogical" in your way of thinking, or just "wrong" because there's no specific fallacy or something else in the philosophical jargon that is involved here, however irrational the situation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2510 by ringo, posted 08-07-2020 12:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2513 by ringo, posted 08-08-2020 9:59 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 2512 of 3207 (880635)
08-08-2020 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2507 by FLRW
08-06-2020 6:08 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
But be careful about quoting famous people!
Shockley (to take an example of another famous scientist) may have been a genius, but his views on some issues were not ones you'd want to quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2507 by FLRW, posted 08-06-2020 6:08 PM FLRW has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2513 of 3207 (880648)
08-08-2020 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2511 by Sarah Bellum
08-08-2020 4:11 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
A person who sees thin ice, thinner than ice that, in their experience, people have always fallen through, nevertheless says, "I'm going to walk across this!"
First, let me point out that I'm Canadian, so thin ice is my natural habitat.
(And I've been waiting for years to do thay joke.)
Sarah Bellum writes:
Is that "illogical" in your way of thinking, or just "wrong"...
On the face of it, it is neither illogical nor wrong nor irrational. A good reason for crossing thin ice might be the polar bear trying to eat you. And it is possible to minimize the danger when crossing thin ice.
Sarah Bellum writes:
... because there's no specific fallacy or something else in the philosophical jargon that is involved here, however irrational the situation?
"Illogical" pretty much does require a specific violation of logic.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2511 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-08-2020 4:11 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2514 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-09-2020 11:03 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 2514 of 3207 (880677)
08-09-2020 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 2513 by ringo
08-08-2020 9:59 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hmm. Interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2513 by ringo, posted 08-08-2020 9:59 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


(1)
Message 2515 of 3207 (880739)
08-11-2020 12:16 AM


Jaggerstatter knew that God does exist and he died for it in a concentration camp. Would you be willing to die for your belief that God does not exist? Because the martyrs have died for their belief that God does exist. Jagerstatter died in a concentration camp because of his belief in Jesus Christ. All of your intellectual wrangling is all but dead leaves to the sacrifice of jagerstatter
Edited by proudly roman catholic, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2517 by ringo, posted 08-11-2020 8:53 AM Trump won has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2516 of 3207 (880743)
08-11-2020 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2508 by ICANT
08-07-2020 2:18 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
Phat what chemicals are you talking about?
This is ringos argument, not mine. I have absolutely no problem with a Universe that began due to the Will of a Creator. Hawking did and ringo does. The man seeks evidence for his very own intelligence. He *used* to be a believer and yet claims that he "outgrew" this childish conclusion.
Whenever I start an argument by saying "some say that..." I am usually talking about our secular peanut gellery here at the Forum.
They will even claim that I have no argument but only an assertion. They insist that we need evidence in order to have an argument...which I will agree with in a science forum argument but not so much in a Faith based argument.
The soapbox critics here at EvC do not realize that "In The Berginning..Chemicals" is as much made up as any God hypothesis. Unless they are inferring the chemicals in their own minds!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2508 by ICANT, posted 08-07-2020 2:18 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2518 by ringo, posted 08-11-2020 9:00 AM Phat has replied
 Message 2519 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2020 11:14 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 2522 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2020 10:54 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2517 of 3207 (880752)
08-11-2020 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 2515 by Trump won
08-11-2020 12:16 AM


proud roman catholic writes:
Because the martyrs have died for their belief that God does exist.
Jews also died in concentration camps. Jehovah's Witnesses also died in concentration camps. People dying for different gods doesn't prove that any of those gods are real.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2515 by Trump won, posted 08-11-2020 12:16 AM Trump won has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2518 of 3207 (880753)
08-11-2020 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2516 by Phat
08-11-2020 6:54 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Phat writes:
I have absolutely no problem with a Universe that began due to the Will of a Creator. Hawking did and ringo does.
No I don't. Will you ever stop telling that lie?
Phat writes:
He *used* to be a believer and yet claims that he "outgrew" this childish conclusion.
There's no need for the mocking tone. That's the only thing in your post that you got right: same as you used to believe in Santa Claus and outgrew that childish conclusion.
Phat writes:
The soapbox critics here at EvC do not realize that "In The Berginning..Chemicals" is as much made up as any God hypothesis.
Nonsense. Chemicals are not made up.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2516 by Phat, posted 08-11-2020 6:54 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2520 by Phat, posted 08-11-2020 11:52 AM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2519 of 3207 (880763)
08-11-2020 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2516 by Phat
08-11-2020 6:54 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Phat writes:
I have absolutely no problem with a Universe that began due to the Will of a Creator. Hawking did and ringo does.
Hawking did not believe that the universe had a creator, he was an atheist. Why do you just keep on making up stuff that seems to suit you? Why not at least check?
quote:
Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist, he wrote in The Grand Design. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.
Using language about God, Hawking told TIME after the book’s release, is more figurative than literal.
God is the name people give to the reason we are here, he said. But I think that reason is the laws of physics rather than someone with whom one can have a personal relationship. An impersonal God.
Hawking considered himself an atheist
Hawking spoke more plainly about his thoughts on God in an interview with Spanish publication El Mundo.
Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation, he said. What I meant by ‘we would know the mind of God’ is, we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God, which there isn’t. I’m an atheist.
Stephen Hawking Was an Atheist: His Words on Death and God | Time

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2516 by Phat, posted 08-11-2020 6:54 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2523 by ICANT, posted 08-13-2020 1:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2520 of 3207 (880764)
08-11-2020 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 2518 by ringo
08-11-2020 9:00 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
That's the only thing in your post that you got right: same as you used to believe in Santa Claus and outgrew that childish conclusion.
Creator of all seen and unseen is hardly on the same level as Santa Claus.
You make the mistake of placing all myths on the same shelf. Ask yourself if it is logical for the shelf to have always existed. We know that it is illogical for humans to have always existed yet with our nifty little chemically formed minds we dare speculate, quantify and objectify everything around us except a Creator, which we quite naturally find illogical and unnecessary. Funny how we never conclude the same thing about our own minds.
Chemicals are not made up.
Yet the idea that chemicals were the first thing around is illogical. If they were all packed tightly in a singularity, they obviously were not involved in the process that formed the singularity itself. No science experiment involves every chemical ever known randomly in the same space.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2518 by ringo, posted 08-11-2020 9:00 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2521 by ringo, posted 08-11-2020 12:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
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