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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1021 of 1444 (880845)
08-12-2020 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1019 by Tangle
08-12-2020 1:17 PM


Tangling With Tangle
Tangle writes:
To have real freewill you must be able to do things that you know to be properly bad. You must be able to choose evil over good.
And I would argue that true freewill was settled on the plane of the Angelic Realm. (Yes, you can charge it as being made up)
Angels had and have a onetime freewill choice. Humans were designed to have total freedom to choose and re-choose again. Repentance is a gift. Only a fallen angel would properly do things repeatedly that they knew to be properly bad. Humans can become oppressed and arguably even possessed with such tendencies...and I know that you label all so-called demonic oppression as actually and entirely a mental illness, which I will not argue with...I've no real desire to promote Satan. In fact, Mr.Tangle...even though you are an atheist and think no more about angels on the head of a pin than you do hottentots in a bushel of yarn, I would argue that in your Catholic upbringing you got an extra dose of the awareness of God. The fact that you dont even think about it is irrelevant. The only question left on our philosophical table now is the fate of atheists since birth and pagans of other beliefs.
You will again ask me rhetorically why my belief is the correct one, and I wont be able to tell you. I do have a scripture for it though:
Rom 2:12-16 writes:
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV
Thus your argument that only a psychopath could kill their Mother is essentially correct in my mind also. The main difference now between you and I is that I think some things are caused by intrinsic evil and willful and continued autonomy which leads to blasphemy of the holy spirit whereas you simply label it all as mental illness.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1019 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2020 1:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1022 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2020 2:59 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1022 of 1444 (880847)
08-12-2020 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1021 by Phat
08-12-2020 2:48 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
I have nothing to say about your made up nonsense, it's pointless but
Phat writes:
whereas you simply label it all as mental illness.
I do not. I label it the human condition. Doing wrong is natural, it's part of our evolutionary history. Our propensity to do wrong can be influenced by many things, only one of which is mental illness.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1021 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 2:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1023 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:12 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1023 of 1444 (880849)
08-12-2020 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1022 by Tangle
08-12-2020 2:59 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
Doing wrong is natural, it's part of our evolutionary history. Our propensity to do wrong can be influenced by many things, only one of which is mental illness.
That's a slippery slope for sure. Critics could and do say that the United Sates has been wrong for 100 years, Marshall Plan notwithstanding. Others may argue that our empire and imposition on others was the lesser of two evils.
The Charismaniacs predict a one world government that is humanist, good and noble on the outside yet evil at its core (by denying Christ and seeking to replace Him with God knows what) and fair on the surface yet oppressive in actuality. On the other end of the political spectrum we have a scientifically measured global warming crises that will also lead to war\s and competition among nations and peoples unless some sort of consensus towards global cooperation is found. I honestly think that both extremes have common ground.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1022 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2020 2:59 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1024 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2020 3:24 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1024 of 1444 (880850)
08-12-2020 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by Phat
08-12-2020 3:12 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
Phat writes:
That's a slippery slope for sure.
What is? The fact that doing wrong is natural? There's no slope it's just a truism.
The Charismaniacs predict a one world government that is humanist, good and noble on the outside yet evil at its core (by denying Christ and seeking to replace Him with God knows what)
Well that's just a pile of sh1te not worthy of comment either.
On the other end of the political spectrum we have a scientifically measured global warming crises that will also lead to war\s and competition among nations and peoples unless some sort of consensus towards global cooperation is found. I honestly think that both extremes have common ground.
Humanism is not an extreme Phat, it's just part of the developmental process of becoming a grown up society. Once religion disappears from a society, nobody misses it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1025 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:38 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1026 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:42 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1025 of 1444 (880851)
08-12-2020 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1024 by Tangle
08-12-2020 3:24 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
Humanism is not an extreme Phat, it's just part of the developmental process of becoming a grown up society. Once religion disappears from a society, nobody misses it.
We have yet to see the effects on a global scale. And answer me this. Which will be the defining perception of government in such a scenario: Authority or Autonomy? You only get to pick one.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1024 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2020 3:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1027 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2020 3:45 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1026 of 1444 (880852)
08-12-2020 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1024 by Tangle
08-12-2020 3:24 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
And I might add a second question. If authority is necessary to maintain order, will religion someday be outlawed due to its effect on social order? What would be the possible authority thus represented apart from consensual authority granted by the people upon themselves? Is that not in actuality global autonomy?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1024 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2020 3:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1028 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2020 3:49 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1027 of 1444 (880853)
08-12-2020 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1025 by Phat
08-12-2020 3:38 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
Phat writes:
Which will be the defining perception of government in such a scenario: Authority or Autonomy? You only get to pick one.
They'll be what they are now, variations on liberal democracies.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1028 of 1444 (880854)
08-12-2020 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1026 by Phat
08-12-2020 3:42 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
Phat writes:
And I might add a second question. If authority is necessary to maintain order, will religion someday be outlawed due to its effect on social order?
Of course not, religion will just be a minority irrelevance - as it is now in some modern Western democracies. We really don't care Phat, believe what you like.
What would be the possible authority thus represented apart from consensual authority granted by the people upon themselves? Is that not in actuality global autonomy?
I have no idea what this means, can you try again?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1026 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 3:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1029 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 4:03 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1029 of 1444 (880855)
08-12-2020 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1028 by Tangle
08-12-2020 3:49 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
I want to discuss these ideas more fully after work.
For reference, I am currently reading The Conflict Between Authority and Autonomy by Robert Wolfe, in which he evidently proposes logic behind anarchy.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1028 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2020 3:49 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1031 by Juvenissun, posted 08-12-2020 8:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1397 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1030 of 1444 (880860)
08-12-2020 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1017 by Sarah Bellum
08-12-2020 11:22 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
I didn't mean that the AI couldn't give ambiguous answers. But the answers will always be the same given the same input. It will always tell you that particular idea is 59% true, it won't change its mind.
As for the other issue, a person is more than the chemicals in them, of course, but only in the sense that a painting is more than a collection of pigments. Assuming accurate enough knowledge, wouldn't it be possible to predict, just from the chemical reactions, the "choices" a person might make? And then would those really be choices?
Not really. Intelligent AI will give an answer to a question. But could give a different answer to the exactly same question at different time or in different environment, if you put those two factors into consideration.
God can't even tell whether a particular human being will eventually believe in Him or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1017 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-12-2020 11:22 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1032 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-13-2020 8:59 AM Juvenissun has replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1397 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1031 of 1444 (880861)
08-12-2020 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1029 by Phat
08-12-2020 4:03 PM


Re: Tangling With Tangle
For reference, I am currently reading The Conflict Between Authority and Autonomy by Robert Wolfe, in which he evidently proposes logic behind anarchy.
There is a math describe Chaos.
If a thing follows logic, it has no freedom.
Wait, I take it back. Freedom can be quantitized.
Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1029 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 4:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 685 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1032 of 1444 (880873)
08-13-2020 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1030 by Juvenissun
08-12-2020 8:22 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Changing the time or the environment is changing the inputs, of course! However you feel about your children, you're more likely to go out shopping for Christmas presents on 4 December than on 4 July.
But doesn't your god know the future? Doesn't your god know whether or not a each person will choose to believe, and which god they will believe in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1030 by Juvenissun, posted 08-12-2020 8:22 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1033 by Juvenissun, posted 08-13-2020 10:09 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1397 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1033 of 1444 (880875)
08-13-2020 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1032 by Sarah Bellum
08-13-2020 8:59 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Changing the time or the environment is changing the inputs, of course! However you feel about your children, you're more likely to go out shopping for Christmas presents on 4 December than on 4 July.
But doesn't your god know the future? Doesn't your god know whether or not a each person will choose to believe, and which god they will believe in?
The variables involved in an environment, which combined with the variable of time is nearly infinite, and would be hard to specified. Thus if an AI has to consider those factors, it has to learn from examples, not deterministic principles.
so each AI system may respond differently to exactly the same input because the interpretation could be different.
If God give someone free will, then God can not predict what he will choose. So many people decided NOT to believe God, that shows the existence of free will.
Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1032 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-13-2020 8:59 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1034 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 11:33 AM Juvenissun has replied
 Message 1041 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-13-2020 2:15 PM Juvenissun has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1034 of 1444 (880876)
08-13-2020 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1033 by Juvenissun
08-13-2020 10:09 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Juvenissun writes:
If God give someone free will, then God can not predict what he will choose. So many people decided NOT to believe God, that shows the existence of free will.
Way back in this topic, Message 127, ringo and I were arguing about the idea of God knowing whether or not a person would end up on His side or not.
Looking back on the arguments which I made, I have kept one of them: Message 119... and stand by it as an intrinsic part of my belief in Gods foreknowledge, omnipotance, and allowing for evil (for a time) as part of the overall plan.
jar brought up one of his standard arguments regarding Gods responsibility regarding ultimate foreknowledge. Message 118.
quote:
But neither of you are asking "What did the God do?" and that is the issue.
The God created the human and if that God had foreknowledge that that creation would be damned regardless of whether or not the creation had freewill, then that God is vile and evil.
What the person does and whether or not it is done through freewill is totally irrelevant.
It is only the acts of the God that are relevant.
Lets assume for a moment that my basic belief is correct in that God had foreknowledge of what Lucifer would decide to do and therefore so loved the world that He sent His Son (even before Lucifer chose to rebel) and essentially made an endrun around the devils plot to ensnare humanity through tricking them into willfully accepting the knowledge of good and evil which made them responsible for every good thing and every evil thing which they knowingly chose to do. In this case, God is not responsible for our free will nor on whether we accept Jesus or not(and assuming that to be the antidote for being tricked by Satan)
I know that Tangle is simply dismissing all of this religious hoopla, but I might point out that he would follow the hypothetical maths which "prove" that the universe sprang from nothing. He is thus responsible for the belief that he chooses regarding origins, meaning, and destiny.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by Juvenissun, posted 08-13-2020 10:09 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by Tangle, posted 08-13-2020 12:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1039 by Juvenissun, posted 08-13-2020 12:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1040 by Juvenissun, posted 08-13-2020 12:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1035 of 1444 (880877)
08-13-2020 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by ringo
07-21-2015 12:20 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
ringo writes:
If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil.
If He doesn't have foreknowledge, He may well have other limitations. In His "communion" with you, He may be exaggerating His powers.
If He holds us responsible for our free choices, He must be held responsible for His.
You have said before that satan is essentially a plot device and is us. If satan were an intrinsic representation of the whole idea of autonomy from the Holy Spirit and if angels were given a onetime decision to accept or reject such a condition, satan would fit well withing a lot of stories of human misery. My question now is:
If God foreknew that Lucifer would choose to rebel and set up a dualistic good/evil paradigm that would impact human decisions and human events during the entire history of humanity on planet earth, would He be responsible for allowing even the possibility for one of his angelic beings to break free from the monistic authority of a loving Oneness God?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1047 by ringo, posted 08-14-2020 12:34 PM Phat has replied

  
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