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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 2551 of 3207 (880972)
08-15-2020 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2550 by Tangle
08-15-2020 1:29 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
I remember a story about a scientist who said, about another scientist, "that was a good scientist, succeeded at solving about 20% of the problems attempted. A great scientist, on the other hand, would have solved about 2% of the problems attempted."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2550 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2020 1:29 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2552 of 3207 (880973)
08-15-2020 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2535 by DrJones*
08-14-2020 10:24 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Dr,
Dr writes:
if you're going to try to overturn known science
If there is some empirical evidence that proves the scientific view of creation is a fact please share it.
How do you overturn something that is a fact? You don't.
How do you overturn something that is based on assumptions? Present facts that show the assumptions to be impossible.
Now as far as my math, it is getting a little rusty at 80 years old.
So let me restate my cause of confusion of what I was trying to say.
According to the Standard theory the universe existed at T=0 + a very small amount of time. Somewhere in the neighborhood of a billionth of a second.
I think I should have written T=10-43.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2535 by DrJones*, posted 08-14-2020 10:24 AM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2553 by DrJones*, posted 08-15-2020 2:01 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 2553 of 3207 (880974)
08-15-2020 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 2552 by ICANT
08-15-2020 1:56 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
I think I should have written T=10-43.
if you only "think" that's what you should have written then it's obvious that you don't know enough to intelligently talk about the physics of the early universe.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2552 by ICANT, posted 08-15-2020 1:56 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2554 of 3207 (880975)
08-15-2020 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2547 by ringo
08-15-2020 9:40 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
No.
T=0 is a position on the time line. It is not a quantity of time.
We can not "see" all the way to T=0 or beyond it.
T=0 is not a position on the time line as time does not exist at T=0, therefore there would be no timeline.
If as has been presented that time is a dimension of the universe, time could not exist prior to the universe existing.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2547 by ringo, posted 08-15-2020 9:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2558 by ringo, posted 08-15-2020 9:22 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2555 of 3207 (880976)
08-15-2020 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2546 by Phat
08-15-2020 7:49 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
Do you believe that at one point in the past, perhaps at ICANTS imaginary (T=0) space where the maths break down that there was NOTHING?
I don't have any imaginary (T=0) space.
Hawking did invent imaginary time that he said ran vertical to the horizontal time line scientists like to talk about.
I will try to find Hawking's lecture where he made that statement. It is hard to find any of his writings as his website has been deleted. Maybe I have been quoting him too much. lol
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2546 by Phat, posted 08-15-2020 7:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2556 of 3207 (880980)
08-15-2020 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2545 by Tangle
08-15-2020 2:38 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Tangle,
Tangle writes:
He, and others, say that the universe can create itself.
So the reason for the universe existing would be that it created itself.
But it is still created requiring a creator.
I think that would be an impossibility. But maybe you could explain it to me.
For the universe to create itself would require that it exist prior to creating itself. That would make it existing eternally in the past. Which the laws of thermodynamics says would be impossible.
If the universe was eternal in existence, why did it wait so long to create the universe we see today? Better yet, what caused it to begin to expand?
Tangle writes:
Scientists are trying to understand how the universe works.
I thought the BBT explained how it worked. Leaving the how it started and why to be pursued.
Tangle writes:
No they don't. And additionally, you are conflating creation, with 'The Creation'.
Creation is creation. I just started 'the creation' of this post a few minutes go.
I created multiple hundreds of sets of kitchen and bath room cabinets. I created many miles of roadway and many large interchanges. I created several houses.
What is the difference of any of those events? My dad did the same as well as many of my friends.
Now is there another kind of creation? I thought creation was the bringing into existence something that not exist before the creation. But we all had to have material to create out of.
Tangle writes:
This is how you guys operate. You deliberately twist scientific findings so that your hangers on get the wrong message. It's dishonest.
What am I twisting?
Creator: An entity that creates an entity that did not exist.
If God created the universe then he is the creator.
If Hawking's instanton created the universe then the instanton is the creator.
If 2 branes created the universe, then the branes are the creator.
It makes no difference what creates the universe would have a creator.
The only way around that is for the universe to have existed eternally. Which is impossible according to the laws of thermodynamics.
Tangle writes:
He did not believe in 'a creator'. 'A creator' is not 'The Creator'. You are simply obfuscating, implying things that he does not believe.
Sure he believed in a creator as he created one, his instanton.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2545 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2020 2:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2557 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2020 5:04 PM ICANT has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2557 of 3207 (880982)
08-15-2020 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2556 by ICANT
08-15-2020 4:04 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
So the reason for the universe existing would be that it created itself.
But it is still created requiring a creator.
No.
I think that would be an impossibility. But maybe you could explain it to me.
Don't be ridiculous, if I could I wouldn't be here and you couldn't possibly understand it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2556 by ICANT, posted 08-15-2020 4:04 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2559 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2020 12:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2558 of 3207 (880985)
08-15-2020 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2554 by ICANT
08-15-2020 2:09 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
T=0 is not a position on the time line as time does not exist at T=0, therefore there would be no timeline.
As I said, we can not "see" as far back in time as T=0, so you have no bssis for claiming that time "didn't exist". There is no way of knowing anything about T=0.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2554 by ICANT, posted 08-15-2020 2:09 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2560 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2020 12:48 AM ringo has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2559 of 3207 (880987)
08-16-2020 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2557 by Tangle
08-15-2020 5:04 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Tangle,
You said the universe created itself.
Now you are telling me:
Tangle writes:
No.
Make up your mind and get back to me.
Tangle writes:
Don't be ridiculous, if I could I wouldn't be here and you couldn't possibly understand it.
Oh I think if you could explain how the universe could create itself I could understand it. I probably would not believe it. But that would not stop me from understanding your explanation.
The first thing you would have to do is get rid of the laws of thermodynamics.
Then you would have to figure out how to get the universe to exist when there was non existence. The universe would have to exist in order to create itself.
You better get yourself a big glass of that special kool aid before you start on that one.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2557 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2020 5:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2561 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2020 3:17 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2560 of 3207 (880988)
08-16-2020 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2558 by ringo
08-15-2020 9:22 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
As I said, we can not "see" as far back in time as T=0,
What part of time does not exist do you not understand?
That is what T=0 represents.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2558 by ringo, posted 08-15-2020 9:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2562 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 9:39 AM ICANT has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2561 of 3207 (880991)
08-16-2020 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2559 by ICANT
08-16-2020 12:39 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
You said the universe created itself.
I said that Hawking and others believes that the universe creates itself. Like you, I haven't a clue.
The only way either of us can understand this high level cosmology is by having the same level of mathematical understanding as they have - or something close to it. I don't have it and neither do you.
Oh I think if you could explain how the universe could create itself I could understand it.
Hawking published his work you know - and I don't mean his popular science books, I mean his hard research, if you really want to know about it, go read it and show where he's wrong. Good luck with that.
All I'm doing here is pointing out that you are a liar when you continue to say that Hawking believed in a creator.
Also Krauss
quote:
A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing is a non-fiction book by the physicist Lawrence M. Krauss, initially published on January 10, 2012 by Free Press. It discusses modern cosmogony and its implications for the debate about the existence of God. The main theme of the book is how "we have discovered that all signs suggest a universe that could and plausibly did arise from a deeper nothinginvolving the absence of space itself andwhich may one day return to nothing via processes that may not only be comprehensible but also processes that do not require any external control or direction."[1][2]
A Universe from Nothing - Wikipedia
Krauss is as rabid an atheist as I am, does he belive in a creator too?
Attempting to recruit celebrity cosmologists into your belief system that don't share your beliefs at all is dishonest and you know it.
If you're at all interested my position on all this is best summed up by Sorensen
"To explain why something exists, we standardly appeal to the existence of something else... For instance, if we answer 'There is something because the Universal Designer wanted there to be something', then our explanation takes for granted the existence of the Universal Designer. Someone who poses the question in a comprehensive way will not grant the existence of the Universal Designer as a starting point. If the explanation cannot begin with some entity, then it is hard to see how any explanation is feasible. Some philosophers conclude 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' is unanswerable. They think the question stumps us by imposing an impossible explanatory demand, namely, 'Deduce the existence of something without using any existential premises'. Logicians should feel no more ashamed of their inability to perform this deduction than geometers should feel ashamed at being unable to square the circle."
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2559 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2020 12:39 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2578 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2020 11:51 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2562 of 3207 (880996)
08-16-2020 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2560 by ICANT
08-16-2020 12:48 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
What part of time does not exist do you not understand?
That is what T=0 represents.
We can not know ANYTHING about T=0. There is no math that can tell us about T=0. T=0 can not "represent" ANYTHING.
"Time does not exist" is a nonsense statement.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2560 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2020 12:48 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2563 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 10:29 AM ringo has replied
 Message 2575 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2020 4:34 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 2563 of 3207 (881000)
08-16-2020 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2562 by ringo
08-16-2020 9:39 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
"Time does not exist" is a nonsense statement.
It might make more sense after we die.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2562 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 9:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2564 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 10:51 AM Phat has replied
 Message 2568 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:06 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2564 of 3207 (881002)
08-16-2020 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2563 by Phat
08-16-2020 10:29 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Yellow is a shade of banana might make more sense after we die.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2563 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 10:29 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2565 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 10:53 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2565 of 3207 (881003)
08-16-2020 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 2564 by jar
08-16-2020 10:51 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Oh hush with your jabberwocky!
I firmly believe that there is a reality after death and hope that I dont end up finding myself a goat.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2564 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 10:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2566 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 12:17 PM Phat has replied
 Message 2603 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2020 5:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
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