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Author Topic:   The Great Depression No One Talks About
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 138 (881210)
08-19-2020 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Hyroglyphx
08-18-2020 4:45 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
Hyroglyphx writes:
If socialism worked the way people like Ringo thinks it works, it would be flat out communism.
You don't seem to know what I think.
Hyroglyphx writes:
History doesn't have a single example of anything besides that repressive system.
Cuba is an example of a country that the US literally tried to overthrow because of an insane hatred for socialism. A more cooperative approach might well have resulted in a more benign version of socialism.
And by the way, the Castro government was significantly better than the (literally) gangster-ridden dictatorship that it replaced.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-18-2020 4:45 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 7:15 AM ringo has replied
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-20-2020 10:59 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 138 (881218)
08-20-2020 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
08-19-2020 9:00 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
Investopedia writes:
The main goal of socialism is to narrow, but not totally remove, the gap between the rich and the poor. The government, through its agencies and policies, takes the responsibility to redistribute production and wealth, making the society fairer and leveled.
This is where ringo and I argue. I would argue that its not fair to level the playing field if I am deemed to make more than the overall fair average. I am in just the wrong spot. The average wage in the retail industry is roughly $15.00 an hour. Many people are currently unemployed, which drives up demand for jobs and lowers the overall acceptable wage. Thus, people would do what I do for less than what I am getting paid. Yet I am NOT rich. All I am trying to do is save my modest surplus, (roughly $500.00 a month) be able to accumulate enough money to retire and supplement my modest expected social security, estimated at around $1200.00 a month. Inflation is looming on the horizon though, and the whole system threatens to destabilize.
Honestly, I think that it is a good thing that we are attempting to level this inflation globally so that the entire world can help pay the bill rather than that the bill be saddled on the US working class. This is where the Republicans get their power and influence and I for one support it in that I refuse to be saddled with the bill while the rest of the socialist market economics of the rest of the world takes the spots that were once occupied by my people. Does that make sense or am I missing a key analytic in this global economy?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 9:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 08-20-2020 8:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 33 of 138 (881225)
08-20-2020 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
08-20-2020 7:15 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
Phat writes:
This is where ringo and I argue.
First of all, the definition you're arguing with is not mine. My idea of socialism is, From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
YOUR needs - healthcare, etc. - would be met, at no direct expense to you.
Phat writes:
All I am trying to do is save my modest surplus, (roughly $500.00 a month)...
As I have told you before, I have NO surplus.
Phat writes:
... and supplement my modest expected social security, estimated at around $1200.00 a month.
That's more than my pensions.
Phat writes:
Does that make sense or am I missing a key analytic in this global economy?
You're missing empathy. And you're sounding a bit racist (or is it white guys who are likely to take your job?)
And you're supporting the fascist Republicans, which should be a clue.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 7:15 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 138 (881235)
08-20-2020 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
08-19-2020 9:00 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
You don't seem to know what I think.
I've been reading your words for nearly 15 years, I think I have a pretty good idea.
Cuba is an example of a country that the US literally tried to overthrow because of an insane hatred for socialism.
Communism, please stop trying to soften it.
the Castro government was significantly better than the (literally) gangster-ridden dictatorship that it replaced.
I grew up in Miami around thousands of Cubans who all shared the same sentiments and personal stories about the horrors of the Castro regime. My brother-in-law is Cuban. Cuban culture and politics is deeply entrenched into who I am. This is aside from the Cubans that I personally plucked out of the sea who risked life and limb to escape, what, Ringo? Imagine how bad it must be to crudely thatch together oil drums and cross the sea hoping that the currents will take you 90 miles to freedom before you die or starvation, sun exposure, dehydration or dysentary. Look at all the Olympic defectors.... competing for their country and then fleeing to another country. Interesting how it isn't the other way around, well, EVER. The only time an American defects to Cuba is to escape prosecution for murder
What fucking planet do you live on that even in 2020 you would have the balls to try and defend an indisputable failure? You must be so isolated that you actually believe this nonsense. Let it go. Marxism is a sham. It always has been and always will be.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 9:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 08-20-2020 12:45 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 35 of 138 (881238)
08-20-2020 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Hyroglyphx
08-20-2020 10:59 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
Hyroglyphx writes:
ringo writes:
Cuba is an example of a country that the US literally tried to overthrow because of an insane hatred for socialism.
Communism, please stop trying to soften it.
It was American stupidity that hardened Castro's line and forced him into the Soviet camp. But of course you couldn't risk the possibility of actual socialism working on your doorstep.
Hyroglyphx writes:
I grew up in Miami around thousands of Cubans who all shared the same sentiments and personal stories about the horrors of the Castro regime.
Sure, if you only listen to one side of the story, you're likely to get a one-sided story.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Interesting how it isn't the other way around, well, EVER.
I know people who fled from Chile after the Americans helped Pinochet overthrow Allende. I know people who fled El Salvador's American-backed death squads.
Hyroglyphx writes:
What fucking planet do you live on that even in 2020 you would have the balls to try and defend an indisputable failure?
Back to my original point, which you kinda sorta halfway agreed with, the merits of a system can not be judged by how hard somebody tried to destroy the system.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Marxism is a sham.
I didn't say a word about Marxism - which supports the conclusion that you don't know what I think.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-20-2020 10:59 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-20-2020 1:54 PM ringo has replied
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-21-2020 10:33 PM ringo has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 138 (881241)
08-20-2020 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
08-20-2020 12:45 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
It was American stupidity that hardened Castro's line and forced him into the Soviet camp. But of course you couldn't risk the possibility of actual socialism
How might that have happened?
Sure, if you only listen to one side of the story, you're likely to get a one-sided story.
Ringo, we aren't talking about a handful of defectors.... We are talking about tens of thousands of people over the span of multiple decades so terrified of Fidel and his government that they risked death just to arrive at their own political enemy's doorstep for salvation. And, wow, look at that... They're flourishing.
I know people who fled from Chile after the Americans helped Pinochet overthrow Allende. I know people who fled El Salvador's American-backed death squads.
Wow, people fleeing war zones.... Insane. I'm talking about Americans getting on rafts to flee the US in search of a better way of life in Cuba. How often does that happen because of the awful, repressive American hegemony? You have no argument.
Back to my original point, which you kinda sorta halfway agreed with, the merits of a system can not be judged by how hard somebody tried to destroy the system.
Expound, please.
I didn't say a word about Marxism
You didn't have to.... It doesn't take a meteorologist to know which direction the wind is blowing from.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 08-20-2020 12:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 08-21-2020 12:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 37 of 138 (881276)
08-21-2020 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Hyroglyphx
08-20-2020 1:54 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
Hyroglyphx writes:
How might that have happened?
You might have given Castro the aid he needed to clean up the mess that Batista and your gangsters left instead of a knee-jerk over-reaction of blind hatred.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Wow, people fleeing war zones...
Chile was not a war zone.
Hyroglyphx writes:
I'm talking about Americans getting on rafts to flee the US in search of a better way of life in Cuba.
In the Trump years we've had refugees crossing into Canada in the dead of winter, losing fingers and toes, to flee the US in search of a better life in Canada.
Hyroglyphx writes:
How often does that happen because of the awful, repressive American hegemony?
See above. And we've had other waves of refugees from the US.
Hroglyphx writes:
ringo writes:
... the merits of a system can not be judged by how hard somebody tried to destroy the system.
Expound, please.
Should be self-explanatory. Invest billions of dollars for decades to try to bring down the American economy and see what happens. Then claim it failed because it was unworkable from the start.
Hyroglyphx writes:
ringo writes:
I didn't say a word about Marxism
You didn't have to.... It doesn't take a meteorologist to know which direction the wind is blowing from.
For an unthinking right-wing fanatic, maybe not.
I have mentioned before that Phat is more of a Marxist than I am. He's the one who talks about class struggle. I am no follower of Marx.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-20-2020 1:54 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-22-2020 11:29 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 138 (881306)
08-21-2020 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
08-20-2020 12:45 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
ringo writes:
It was American stupidity that hardened Castro's line and forced him into the Soviet camp. But of course you couldn't risk the possibility of actual socialism working on your doorstep.
It sure didnt work in the Soviet Union. Now we are faced with Cold War II and some experts say that the Communist Chinese government might win this one. Don't you see why this is a threat to the ubiquitous American Dream? I will admit that the American Dream is out of reach of all but the class right above mine. I see examples of people succeeding in lower economic quadrants, but they are apparantly happy with about what I have...and raising families on it to boot!
The dissidents that Hyro likely met in Miami were onetime small business owners who got wrecked when Castro took over. That's what Trump wants to prevent happening here. We are not simply going to let every liberal protesting on the streets and demanding their stimulus check...which just kicks the proverbial can further along get free handouts which we must then make up for through higher taxes and working harder.
We dont want to raise the poor up to the same level and thus have to give up our ambition and settle for the same thing they get. If they cant hustle and compete, they are not gonna make the government support them. (except for me...I'm old and need my social security checks. But I have an excuse.)
See the extremes I am stuck between?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 08-20-2020 12:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by DrJones*, posted 08-21-2020 11:47 PM Phat has replied
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 08-22-2020 12:53 PM Phat has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 39 of 138 (881307)
08-21-2020 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
08-21-2020 10:33 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
We dont want to raise the poor up to the same level and thus have to give up our ambition and settle for the same thing they get.
cause as jesus said "the poor? fuck those guys"

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-21-2020 10:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 08-22-2020 5:13 AM DrJones* has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 138 (881316)
08-22-2020 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by DrJones*
08-21-2020 11:47 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
I realize that I am ranting and that I am not representing Jesus very well whenever I do so. Thanks for making the point, however.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by DrJones*, posted 08-21-2020 11:47 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 138 (881329)
08-22-2020 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
08-21-2020 12:19 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
You might have given Castro the aid he needed to clean up the mess that Batista and your gangsters left instead of a knee-jerk over-reaction of blind hatred.
Batista was a dictator who was supplanted by a dictator.
Chile was not a war zone.
What does any of it have to do with what I said, that you see Cubans coming to America not the other way around?
In the Trump years we've had refugees crossing into Canada in the dead of winter, losing fingers and toes, to flee the US in search of a better life in Canada.
Yeah, like all the celebrities who vowed to move to Canada after Trump won the election but never went anywhere.
And we've had other waves of refugees from the US.
No take backs!!!! Not sure what that has to do with Cuba but, okay...
Invest billions of dollars for decades to try to bring down the American economy and see what happens. Then claim it failed because it was unworkable from the start
Who are you referring to?
For an unthinking right-wing fanatic, maybe not.
I have mentioned before that Phat is more of a Marxist than I am. He's the one who talks about class struggle. I am no follower of Marx.
Phat doesn't want his hard earned money going to people who contributed nothing to the pot. I suppose that is Marxist, since Stalin threw those who did the same in Gulags!

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 08-21-2020 12:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 08-22-2020 1:18 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 42 of 138 (881337)
08-22-2020 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
08-21-2020 10:33 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
Phat writes:
It sure didnt work in the Soviet Union.
Billions of dollars were spent over seventy years to make it not work. I could prevent you from working with a ten-dollar crowbar to the kneecaps.
Phat writes:
Don't you see why this is a threat to the ubiquitous American Dream?
I'm not talking about dreams. I'm talking about history.
Phat writes:
See the extremes I am stuck between?
You're stuck between the right wing (Silly Party) and the extreme right wing (Very Silly Party). You need to get out of the nest.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-21-2020 10:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 08-22-2020 2:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 43 of 138 (881338)
08-22-2020 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
08-22-2020 11:29 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
Hyroglyphx writes:
Batista was a dictator who was supplanted by a dictator.
Batista was out for himself and out for the American gangsters. Castro was out for the people.
Hyroglyohx writes:
What does any of it have to do with what I said, that you see Cubans coming to America not the other way around?
You're pretending that people only flee from socialism and I'm pointing out that you're factually wrong.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Yeah, like all the celebrities who vowed to move to Canada after Trump won the election but never went anywhere.
No, like the refugees crossing into Canada in the dead of winter, losing fingers and toes, to flee the US in search of a better life in Canada. Thousands of them. Don't trivialize them.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Not sure what that has to do with Cuba...
It shows that people flee FROM the US as well as to it.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Phat doesn't want his hard earned money going to people who contributed nothing to the pot.
Everybody contributes.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-22-2020 11:29 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-24-2020 11:20 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 138 (881341)
08-22-2020 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
08-22-2020 12:53 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
Yeah but the Left Wing is dominated by atheists, witches, all sorts of Trans Sexual paganism, Greta, and assorted humanist tree huggers. You guys have your own version of Armageddon, scientifically backed by global warming. The nations may end up fighting over that too.
I don't trust human nature nor do I trust the "other" spirit.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 08-22-2020 12:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 08-23-2020 9:26 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 119 by Aussie, posted 09-10-2020 9:07 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 45 of 138 (881384)
08-23-2020 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
08-22-2020 2:30 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Elaborate?
Phat writes:
Yeah but the Left Wing is dominated by atheists, witches, all sorts of Trans Sexual paganism, Greta, and assorted humanist tree huggers.
Nonsense.
Phat writes:
I don't trust human nature nor do I trust the "other" spirit.
The only "other" spirit here is your hateful spirit.
(Trans Sexual paganism? What the hell is wrong with you?)

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 08-22-2020 2:30 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by dwise1, posted 08-23-2020 5:43 PM ringo has replied

  
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