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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1201 of 1444 (881368)
08-23-2020 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1200 by jar
08-22-2020 7:56 PM


Re: Proof God has no free will?
jar writes:
The God you and the Apologists market foreknowingly CREATES people who will be damned regardless of what they do.
Where does it say this in the Bible?
  • Also where does it say that God is unknowable until after we die? The apologists market a God Who is knowable through Jesus Christ.
    jar writes:
    In Genesis 2&3 there is no Fall, rather Adam and Eve become more like God. In the story it is the Serpent that tells the truth and the God that lies or at best tells half truths and made up stuff.
    It is interesting that humans would make up such a story. What possible purpose would such a tale serve? And why do so few Christians even market that story the way that you do? What does the snake character represent? Why is the God you interpret through your skilled reading of the scriptures a mere creation of humans? Do apologists simply ignore the wisdom of a critical thinking curmudgeon from Texas? Why should we believe your interpretation? Is the Emperor wearing any clothes?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1200 by jar, posted 08-22-2020 7:56 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1202 by jar, posted 08-23-2020 7:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 1202 of 1444 (881371)
    08-23-2020 7:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 1201 by Phat
    08-23-2020 2:10 AM


    Re: Proof God has no free will?
    Phat writes:
    jar writes:
    The God you and the Apologists market foreknowingly CREATES people who will be damned regardless of what they do.
    Where does it say this in the Bible?
    Of course it doesn't say that in the Bible; it is the Apologist and you who make that claim. You claim that god is omniscient and the creator of all, seen and unseen and that you are among the saved but many others are not.
    Phat writes:
    Also where does it say that God is unknowable until after we die? The apologists market a God Who is knowable through Jesus Christ.
    It is all the evidence Phat that shows that all the gods humans can and have discussed are simply descriptions of the god they imagined. That's why the God in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the God in Genesis 2&3 and the gods of the Hindus and god of all the other religions are completely different. They are all the creation of humans and exist only as long as humans believe in them.
    Phat writes:
    jar writes:
    In Genesis 2&3 there is no Fall, rather Adam and Eve become more like God. In the story it is the Serpent that tells the truth and the God that lies or at best tells half truths and made up stuff.
    It is interesting that humans would make up such a story. What possible purpose would such a tale serve? And why do so few Christians even market that story the way that you do? What does the snake character represent? Why is the God you interpret through your skilled reading of the scriptures a mere creation of humans? Do apologists simply ignore the wisdom of a critical thinking curmudgeon from Texas? Why should we believe your interpretation? Is the Emperor wearing any clothes
    The Apologists simply market what they create. And yes, the Apologists willfully ignore Critical Thinking and in fact refuse to thinks at all.
    And Phat, I have explained the value of both Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3 to yo0u many, many, many, ... many times.
    Genesis 1 is the basic scripture that defines the base that separates the Jews for all others; the "Sacred Week and Sabbath". The Sabbath is essential to the whole Judaic Faith and was so important that it carried over into both of the spin off religions; Islam and Christianity. It is a Just So story used to provide a divine justification for the practice.
    Genesis 2&3 are also Just So stories, much much older that the Genesis 1 Just So story, that explain basic facts of life; why childbirth for humans seemed so much harder than it did for all the other animals, why we fear snakes, why we have a moral compass and a knowledge of right and wrong, why we have to farm and work hard for a living instead of simply being hunter gatherers (this particular tale carries over into the Cane & Able fable) and in particular, why women must be subject to man.
    The God and the Serpent are simply plot devices in the stories and represent only themselves. This is show in the conclusions; that being human will not be easy, not always pleasant, often hard and painful yet far more like God than the dumb beasts.
    All of these had great value at the time long before the concept of a Bible or Canon. These were the creation of Judaism myths. They continue right though all of the Old Testament describing politics and social structure and aliances and disputes. It was those who came later that perverted them to create a formal dogma.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1201 by Phat, posted 08-23-2020 2:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 1203 of 1444 (881385)
    08-23-2020 9:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 1195 by AnswersInGenitals
    08-22-2020 5:17 PM


    Re: Proof God has no free will?
    AnswersInGenitals writes:
    If God didn’t want Adam or Eve to eat the Fruit Of the Tree Of Knowledge (FOTOK)....
    I bet you could sell fotok to the health food crowd.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1195 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 08-22-2020 5:17 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1204 of 1444 (881386)
    08-23-2020 9:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 1196 by Juvenissun
    08-22-2020 7:23 PM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Juvenissun writes:
    Those who cry Lord, Lord, may or may not be believers.
    That is a True statement.
    Jesus said that "not everyone" who cries Lord! Lord! is a true follower - i.e. professing belief is not a valid indicator.
    Juvenissun writes:
    Please follow basic logic when you do that.
    Check the beam in your own eye.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1196 by Juvenissun, posted 08-22-2020 7:23 PM Juvenissun has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1205 of 1444 (881388)
    08-23-2020 9:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 1199 by Juvenissun
    08-22-2020 7:51 PM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Juvennisun writes:
    There ARE angelic beings described in the Bible.
    The Bible says a lot of things that are patently false. The talking snake is one of the most obvious examples. It's obvious because snakes don't have the physical apparatus required for speech, much like how giraffes do not have the physical apparatus required for juggling.
    Juvennisun writes:
    do you believe some human can communicate with snakes (and many other animals) today? That is a way of "talk".
    The Bible QUOTES the WORDS that the snake spoke. That is not "some kind of communication". It's SPEECH.
    The snake is obviously a literary device, a way to present Eve's thought process.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1199 by Juvenissun, posted 08-22-2020 7:51 PM Juvenissun has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1207 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 10:40 AM ringo has replied

      
    Juvenissun
    Member (Idle past 1308 days)
    Posts: 332
    Joined: 07-25-2020


    Message 1206 of 1444 (881396)
    08-23-2020 10:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 1200 by jar
    08-22-2020 7:56 PM


    Re: Proof God has no free will?
    it is the Serpent that tells the truth and the God that lies or at best tells half truths and made up stuff.
    Where does God not tell the whole truth? How do you define "die" or "death"? When Adam and Eve lived in the Garden, they are immortal. How could they "die"?
    Your fault is entire due to a very foggy understanding about Christian terminology.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1200 by jar, posted 08-22-2020 7:56 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1208 by jar, posted 08-23-2020 10:43 AM Juvenissun has replied

      
    Juvenissun
    Member (Idle past 1308 days)
    Posts: 332
    Joined: 07-25-2020


    Message 1207 of 1444 (881397)
    08-23-2020 10:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 1205 by ringo
    08-23-2020 9:48 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    The Bible says a lot of things that are patently false. The talking snake is one of the most obvious examples. It's obvious because snakes don't have the physical apparatus required for speech, much like how giraffes do not have the physical apparatus required for juggling.
    So you do not accept that the snake is an angel? Why not? Because it is not scientific?
    Are you going to use science to argue against theology? Where is God in science? Are you going to continue that kind of talk in this faith-based forum? the Bible is a faith book, not a science book. EVERYTHING said in the Bible is theologically sound and correct.
    Your talking snake question has been fully answered.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1205 by ringo, posted 08-23-2020 9:48 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1211 by ringo, posted 08-23-2020 1:06 PM Juvenissun has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 1208 of 1444 (881398)
    08-23-2020 10:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 1206 by Juvenissun
    08-23-2020 10:33 AM


    Re: Proof God has no free will?
    You really really have never read the Bible child. Take some time and actually read what is written.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1206 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 10:33 AM Juvenissun has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1209 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 10:46 AM jar has replied

      
    Juvenissun
    Member (Idle past 1308 days)
    Posts: 332
    Joined: 07-25-2020


    Message 1209 of 1444 (881399)
    08-23-2020 10:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 1208 by jar
    08-23-2020 10:43 AM


    Re: Proof God has no free will?
    You may have read some in the Bible. Your talk disclosed that you don't really understand what you read.
    A simple test: what does "die" or "death" mean in the Bible?
    Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1208 by jar, posted 08-23-2020 10:43 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1210 by jar, posted 08-23-2020 10:55 AM Juvenissun has not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 1210 of 1444 (881400)
    08-23-2020 10:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 1209 by Juvenissun
    08-23-2020 10:46 AM


    Learn how to read
    Die or death in the Bible means exactly the same thing as die or death in Qur'an or Talmud or Torah or Book of the Dead or All Quiet on the Western Front.
    And I, unlike the Christian Cult of Ignorance understand that what is written in the Bible stories is what is actually written in the Bible Stories and not what is marketed by the Apologists and Snake Oil Medicine men or Carny Hucksters that make up so much of modern Christianity.
    Go actually read what is written and when you show that you are actually capable of reading what is written then maybe we can hold a discussion. Right now though Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1209 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 10:46 AM Juvenissun has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1211 of 1444 (881406)
    08-23-2020 1:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 1207 by Juvenissun
    08-23-2020 10:40 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Juvenissun writes:
    So you do not accept that the snake is an angel? Why not?
    Because the Bible says it was a snake.
    Juvenissun writes:
    Are you going to use science to argue against theology?
    I can use the Bible to argue against YOUR theology.
    Juvenissun writes:
    Where is God in science?
    God is in the imagination of humans, along with leprechauns and the Tooth Fairy.
    Juvenissun writes:
    the Bible is a faith book, not a science book.
    Then why do you use it to try to prove the flood happened?
    Juvenissun writes:
    EVERYTHING said in the Bible is theologically sound and correct.
    It's your theology that is not correct, because you're misusing the Bible.
    Juvenissun writes:
    Your talking snake question has been fully answered.
    What question did I ask?

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1207 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 10:40 AM Juvenissun has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1218 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 6:17 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1212 of 1444 (881407)
    08-23-2020 3:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 1195 by AnswersInGenitals
    08-22-2020 5:17 PM


    Re: Proof God has no free will?
    If God didn’t want Adam or Eve to eat the Fruit Of the Tree Of Knowledge (FOTOK), why did he put the tree in the garden of eden?
    The apologetic answer (words I invent to attempt to describe the story and elaborate on what is written) is that the newly created humans were not created good or evil but simply as innocent babies, though in the form of adults. The Tree of knowledge was allowed to exiswt so that humans would have free access to know evil, or what is was that God disapproved of by definition. (Since God is good, not complete as some ignorant scholars might suggest) Evil is acknowledged by God, yet is not the character of God. This stuff gets deep and as I attempt to defend my own beliefs, I realize that my opponents have challenged me with questions that disprove much of what I teach. Stay tuned....

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1195 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 08-22-2020 5:17 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1213 of 1444 (881409)
    08-23-2020 3:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 1164 by Juvenissun
    08-20-2020 5:42 PM


    Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
    ringo writes:
    God is in the imagination of humans, along with leprechauns and the Tooth Fairy.
    Juvenissun, allow me to teach you how to approach any argument that you may have here at EvC Forum with an unbeliever.
    First, you need to approach the argument knowing the differences between yourself and your opponent. ringo has never claimed to be an atheist, but he once was in church believing (as he claims) everything that we now do. Having a searching and inquisitive mind, and having grown up in the sixties when the young of that era fought against the establishment and conservative empire building schemes of Nixon and the Republicans, ringo has been an advocate of socialism as the best system of people helping others.
    As he rejected organized religion and embraced the reality of humans helping humans, he concluded that it was the message that was important and not the messenger.(Jesus Christ) To his credit, ringo reads the Bible and uses it skillfully to challenge the assumptions of believing Christians. He has convicted me a time or two, and although he claims that the Bible is no more important of a book that The Legend Of Long John Silver or The Lord Of The Rings, he rubs it in the face of Christians attempting to use it to school him.
    jar has also read the Bible and even taught classes on it at one of the Episcopal churches he attended. To understand jar, read his Belief Statement. Message 1
    These are the two main EvC Forum members that will challenge everything you have ever believed. You will be tempted to get mad at them, but try not to do so.
    jars error is in never settling on Jesus Christ as an answer. He will incredulously ask what that even means. He does not understand or believe that there are two spirits..the spirit of the age,and the Holy Spirit.
    Likewise, ringo teaches us to accept the message of Jesus but that accepting Jesus is less important. He would advocate accepting all humans as equal. He has erred by incorrectly placing Jesus in the category of myth.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1164 by Juvenissun, posted 08-20-2020 5:42 PM Juvenissun has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1214 by ringo, posted 08-23-2020 3:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1215 by jar, posted 08-23-2020 3:51 PM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1214 of 1444 (881410)
    08-23-2020 3:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 1213 by Phat
    08-23-2020 3:28 PM


    Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
    Phat writes:
    Having a searching and inquisitive mind, and having grown up in the sixties when the young of that era fought against the establishment and conservative empire building schemes of Nixon and the Republicans, ringo has been an advocate of socialism as the best system of people helping others.
    Bear in mind that I'm not using the Krazy Klown definition of socialism that you use.
    Phat writes:
    As he rejected organized religion and embraced the reality of humans helping humans, he concluded that it was the message that was important and not the messenger.
    You have it backwards (as usual). I learned that the message was important from my parents and then again in church. I rejected the idea that the messenger is important because of people like you turning a beautiful and practical message into an ugly personality cult.
    Phat writes:
    ... he claims that the Bible is no more important of a book that The Legend Of Long John Silver....
    The title is Treasure Island.
    Phat writes:
    ringo teaches us to accept the message of Jesus...
    The sad part is that you still have to be taught.
    Phat writes:
    ... but that accepting Jesus is less important.
    Not "less important". UNimportant. Completely unimportant, as proven by the people of other religions who don't accept your messenger at all but who understand the message much better than you do.
    Phat writes:
    He would advocate accepting all humans as equal.
    You mean you don't? What kind of American are you, rejecting the Declaration of Independence? Remember, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...."?
    Phat writes:
    He has errored by incorrectly placing Jesus in the category of myth.
    And you have never been able to show that that is an error.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1213 by Phat, posted 08-23-2020 3:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 1215 of 1444 (881411)
    08-23-2020 3:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 1213 by Phat
    08-23-2020 3:28 PM


    Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
    Phat writes:
    He does not understand or believe that there are two spirits..the spirit of the age,and the Holy Spirit.
    Have you or any Apologist ever presented evidence or even a reasoned argument to support the existence of any spirits?

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1213 by Phat, posted 08-23-2020 3:28 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1216 by Phat, posted 08-23-2020 4:04 PM jar has replied
     Message 1220 by Juvenissun, posted 08-23-2020 6:22 PM jar has replied

      
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