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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1307 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1231 of 1444 (881478)
08-24-2020 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1222 by jar
08-23-2020 6:29 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
What exactly is the test to identify some spirit?
For your spirit, the test comes from your mouth and your thinking.
Or, if you want explicit data, you can make a survey to no matter how many people with a question: "Do you think you have a human spirit? (yes no). " Can you imagine the result of this survey?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1222 by jar, posted 08-23-2020 6:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1234 by jar, posted 08-24-2020 6:38 PM Juvenissun has replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1307 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1232 of 1444 (881479)
08-24-2020 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1112 by Sarah Bellum
08-18-2020 9:26 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
If we define a unicorn in the usual way, four legs, tail, mane, horn, etc, you can think about it, know what it is, and decide whether there is such a thing.
But if you add another property, "existence", then things get more interesting. A unicorn is something that exists, has four legs, tail, mane, horn, etc. Does it exist? Yes, of course, by definition!
Very good first step.
So, by definition, the unicorn exists.
Then what?
Define something is only the first step. The meaningful thing is what is the use of that definition. By defining a god, a theology can be constructed. What does the unicorn-ology say AFTER you define the unicorn?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1112 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-18-2020 9:26 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1361 by Sarah Bellum, posted 10-24-2020 6:21 PM Juvenissun has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1233 of 1444 (881485)
08-24-2020 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1230 by Juvenissun
08-24-2020 5:49 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
juv writes:
It does not matter how did you feel in a church. The key is you DO feel some differences.
THAT, is the evidence.
LOL
It is evidence that you feel something but is not evidence that it is not just a bad burrito. It is most certainly not evidence of any spirit or god or miracle or anything other than feeling something.
Sheesh!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1230 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 5:49 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1235 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 7:53 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1234 of 1444 (881486)
08-24-2020 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1231 by Juvenissun
08-24-2020 5:53 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
juv writes:
Or, if you want explicit data, you can make a survey to no matter how many people with a question: "Do you think you have a human spirit? (yes no). " Can you imagine the result of this survey?
Again, you really are totally clueless of what the word "evidence" means.
Are you willfully trying to be dumber that the red brick?
The survey would be evidence of absolutely NOTHING but the results of the survey.
It is NOT and can never be evidence of "spirit".
Basics.
If you want to stop coming off like that red brick then learn some basics.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1231 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 5:53 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1236 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 7:59 PM jar has replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1307 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1235 of 1444 (881488)
08-24-2020 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1233 by jar
08-24-2020 6:35 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
It is evidence that you feel something but is not evidence that it is not just a bad burrito. It is most certainly not evidence of any spirit or god or miracle or anything other than feeling something.
Is the difference feeling in mood of a gathering caused by anything physical? if not, what caused the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1233 by jar, posted 08-24-2020 6:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1237 by jar, posted 08-24-2020 8:02 PM Juvenissun has replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1307 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1236 of 1444 (881489)
08-24-2020 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1234 by jar
08-24-2020 6:38 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
The survey would be evidence of absolutely NOTHING but the results of the survey.
So, what kind of thing you expect to see which you would take it as an evidence? If you can not specify it, then you do not know what you are asking for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1234 by jar, posted 08-24-2020 6:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1238 by jar, posted 08-24-2020 8:09 PM Juvenissun has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1237 of 1444 (881490)
08-24-2020 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1235 by Juvenissun
08-24-2020 7:53 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
juv writes:
Is the difference feeling in mood of a gathering caused by anything physical? if not, what caused the difference?
Yup, it's caused by chemistry and indoctrination. No spirit involved other than the oft chose alcohol or illicit drugs.
And it is still not evidence of anything other than the fact that people feel something.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1235 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 7:53 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1248 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 9:07 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1238 of 1444 (881492)
08-24-2020 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1236 by Juvenissun
08-24-2020 7:59 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
juv writes:
So, what kind of thing you expect to see which you would take it as an evidence?
I see no evidence it would be possible to ever see any evidence for anything other than purely natural events.
It is impossible for there to be evidence of anything supernatural. Period.
There can be unexplained things but even unexplained and unexplainable events are not evidence of anything but that they happened.
But the topic of course is free will and omniscience and the ONLY possible conclusion is trying to market an omniscient god that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen but that also condemns people to hell is that that god is simply evil and unworthy of respect or worship.
Of course, since the Bible is filled with contradictions it's also very easy to show that such a god is demonstrably evil. The Bible also says that God is NOT omniscient but most Biblical Christians never actually read the Bible and so are unaware of that or more likely, just pretend it doesn't say what is actually written.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1236 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 7:59 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1242 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 1:52 AM jar has replied
 Message 1250 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 9:13 AM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1239 of 1444 (881508)
08-24-2020 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1228 by Phat
08-24-2020 4:10 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
If the answer was ever truly in your head and your heart and the answer was Jesus Christ, I would argue that you cant really outgrow Him as easily as you would a Santa Claus myth, spaghetti monster mythos, or any other fool thing that humans believe.
Stop saying you "would argue" when all you ever do is assert. And stop using the No True Christian PRATT.
Phat writes:
Unless you finally concluded that human wisdom made God rather than the other way around. In which case I argue that you are WRONG.
Again, that's not an argument. It's pretty clear you don't have one.
Phat writes:
Science and its method are great for telling us facts about material reality but are no better than spiritual belief and experience at defining and/or disproving God.
Yes they are. Science shows us that your version of spiritual belief is no different from the thousands of other versions of spiritual belief.
Phat writes:
You simply chose to no longer believe...
Stop lying about me.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1228 by Phat, posted 08-24-2020 4:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1241 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 1:44 AM ringo has replied
 Message 1245 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 5:57 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1240 of 1444 (881511)
08-25-2020 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1229 by Tangle
08-24-2020 4:44 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
I was about 14 and I'd never heard of evolution or the scientific method. Just accept it, I believed exactly like you, then I didn't. Don't try to spin it, it's a fact.
Did you ever see unexplained behavior,voices coming out of people that sounded nothing like them, bodies convulsing on the floor, and after the "excorcism, radiant peace and healing tears? Did you ever hear several voices at once come out of someone that no human could imitate such a sound? Did you have your hair stand on end? Did you realize that at worst, you were definitely experiencing something unexplained? That's a fact for me

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1229 by Tangle, posted 08-24-2020 4:44 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1243 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 2:35 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1255 by ringo, posted 08-25-2020 12:21 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1241 of 1444 (881512)
08-25-2020 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1239 by ringo
08-24-2020 9:07 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
ringo writes:
Again, that's not an argument. It's pretty clear you don't have one.
No, you are correct. All that I have are my experiences. Experiences that you likely never had. Like you, I saw many "Christians" behaving as bad or worse than secular folks in the local bar---even after they were drunk. I had many reasons I could have used to leave the faith. Whats the difference between you and I?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1239 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 9:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1254 by ringo, posted 08-25-2020 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1242 of 1444 (881513)
08-25-2020 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1238 by jar
08-24-2020 8:09 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
jar writes:
It is impossible for there to be evidence of anything supernatural. Period.
There can be unexplained things but even unexplained and unexplainable events are not evidence of anything but that they happened.
But the topic of course is free will and omniscience and the ONLY possible conclusion is trying to market an omniscient god that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen but that also condemns people to hell is that that god is simply evil and unworthy of respect or worship.
I agree that there never will be objective evidence of the supernatural (although unexplained can sometimes later be explained)
I also see the argument you are attempting to make about an all-knowing God, but what type of God are you trying to say would better explain things? Oner who did noty foreknow anything? One who allowed humans to become the decisions that they made and either knew them or "never knew" them? The latter explanation works for me....I cannot imagine a God with limited power, but I can imagine a God Who allows humans to choose their destiny to an extent. Foreknowledge is an UN-necessary characteristic.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1238 by jar, posted 08-24-2020 8:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1247 by jar, posted 08-25-2020 7:19 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1243 of 1444 (881514)
08-25-2020 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1240 by Phat
08-25-2020 1:41 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
Did you ever see unexplained behavior,voices coming out of people that sounded nothing like them, bodies convulsing on the floor, and after the "excorcism, radiant peace and healing tears? Did you ever hear several voices at once come out of someone that no human could imitate such a sound? Did you have your hair stand on end? Did you realize that at worst, you were definitely experiencing something unexplained? That's a fact for me
I've seen many of those but only in a mental hospital where they belong. If those things happened in the church I attended my parents would have had the sense not to take me there - it would be child abuse. No wonder you're so fucked up.
If that's what you think belief in Jesus is, you're as crazy as they are. I believed as deeply as anyone could without the hysterical pantomime, accept it and stop projecting.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1240 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 1:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1244 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 5:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1244 of 1444 (881516)
08-25-2020 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1243 by Tangle
08-25-2020 2:35 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
tangle writes:
I've seen many of those but only in a mental hospital where they belong.
Demonic manifestations happen in mental hospitals also. No, I cannot prove it to the satisfaction of science, but such manifestation has been reported by many sane people. The fact that *you* think its daft does not make it so.
Tangle writes:
If those things happened in the church I attended my parents would have had the sense not to take me there - it would be child abuse.
I could see how reasonable parents would protect their children from such knowledge...but the parents themselves would do better to face the unknown reality which scientific evidence cannot prove or disprove since there is no way to objectivly measure such activity.
I believe though cannot prove that this stuff is real. I also realize and will readily admit that 80% of it is either sensationalism(to drum up business) or is counterfeit manifestations from the occult side of the spirit world in order to discredit the power of God (Creator of all seen and unseen...Jesus Father) and finally I know that I will never convince you. If I tell you that religion is *not* going to quietly go away as the world turns to its new "god" of science, you will tell me that I am clinging to a fantasy. So if we ever do go fishing I suggest we steer clear of talking about religion and beliefs. I am not a loon worthy of a mental hospital (as best as I can determine) but I do respect science, psychology, and psychiatry for what these disciplines of human knowledge can give us. You, on the other hand, dismiss anything that cannot be pinned down by evidence or that can be (in your opinion) better explained through natural means. Hey...I dont blame you for believing as you do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1243 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 2:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1246 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 6:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1245 of 1444 (881517)
08-25-2020 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1239 by ringo
08-24-2020 9:07 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
ringo writes:
Science shows us that your version of spiritual belief is no different from the thousands of other versions of spiritual belief.
All that science shows us is that people can and do believe anything. I happen to believe that all of the beliefs are beliefs in philosophical concepts and/or wannabe gods. You and Tangle will tell me that I am sticking to exclusivity in the belief that I was culturally raised in. Its a good argument--I certainly cant prove otherwise to you. You also will argue that you guys simply believe in one less God than I do....and lump beliefs in general into a relativistic camp.
You will defend your positions by claiming that you were believers just as much as I am now. I highly doubt it though cannot prove it. Some arguments I just cant win.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1239 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 9:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1256 by ringo, posted 08-25-2020 12:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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