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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1233 of 1444 (881485)
08-24-2020 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1230 by Juvenissun
08-24-2020 5:49 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
juv writes:
It does not matter how did you feel in a church. The key is you DO feel some differences.
THAT, is the evidence.
LOL
It is evidence that you feel something but is not evidence that it is not just a bad burrito. It is most certainly not evidence of any spirit or god or miracle or anything other than feeling something.
Sheesh!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1230 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 5:49 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1235 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 7:53 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1234 of 1444 (881486)
08-24-2020 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1231 by Juvenissun
08-24-2020 5:53 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
juv writes:
Or, if you want explicit data, you can make a survey to no matter how many people with a question: "Do you think you have a human spirit? (yes no). " Can you imagine the result of this survey?
Again, you really are totally clueless of what the word "evidence" means.
Are you willfully trying to be dumber that the red brick?
The survey would be evidence of absolutely NOTHING but the results of the survey.
It is NOT and can never be evidence of "spirit".
Basics.
If you want to stop coming off like that red brick then learn some basics.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1231 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 5:53 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1236 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 7:59 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1237 of 1444 (881490)
08-24-2020 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1235 by Juvenissun
08-24-2020 7:53 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
juv writes:
Is the difference feeling in mood of a gathering caused by anything physical? if not, what caused the difference?
Yup, it's caused by chemistry and indoctrination. No spirit involved other than the oft chose alcohol or illicit drugs.
And it is still not evidence of anything other than the fact that people feel something.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1235 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 7:53 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1248 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 9:07 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1238 of 1444 (881492)
08-24-2020 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1236 by Juvenissun
08-24-2020 7:59 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
juv writes:
So, what kind of thing you expect to see which you would take it as an evidence?
I see no evidence it would be possible to ever see any evidence for anything other than purely natural events.
It is impossible for there to be evidence of anything supernatural. Period.
There can be unexplained things but even unexplained and unexplainable events are not evidence of anything but that they happened.
But the topic of course is free will and omniscience and the ONLY possible conclusion is trying to market an omniscient god that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen but that also condemns people to hell is that that god is simply evil and unworthy of respect or worship.
Of course, since the Bible is filled with contradictions it's also very easy to show that such a god is demonstrably evil. The Bible also says that God is NOT omniscient but most Biblical Christians never actually read the Bible and so are unaware of that or more likely, just pretend it doesn't say what is actually written.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1236 by Juvenissun, posted 08-24-2020 7:59 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1242 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 1:52 AM jar has replied
 Message 1250 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 9:13 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1247 of 1444 (881520)
08-25-2020 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1242 by Phat
08-25-2020 1:52 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
I also see the argument you are attempting to make about an all-knowing God, but what type of God are you trying to say would better explain things?
No god ever imagined has ever been a true explanation of anything.
However a god without foreknowledge who was the creator of all that is, seen and unseen might not be evil.
It is still unnecessary though.
What you can or cannot imagine only limits what god you create. Any God or god that humans can describe must be a product and creation of the human imagination.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1242 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 1:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1249 of 1444 (881525)
08-25-2020 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1248 by Juvenissun
08-25-2020 9:07 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
That's the only world that exists; there is zero evidence that "spirit" exists and overwhelming evidence that all the religious spirit is simply fantasy.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1248 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 9:07 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1251 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 9:15 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1252 of 1444 (881530)
08-25-2020 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1250 by Juvenissun
08-25-2020 9:13 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
juv writes:
OK, you see no possibility to have an evidence to support an idea.
That means, you will also have no possibility to see an evidence to against that idea.
No, silly child, it does not mean I will have have no possibility to see an(y) evidence to(sic) against that idea and in fact the evidence against what is marketed as supernatural is overwhelming.
The evidence that the Bible is simply a human creation and filled with errors, impossibilities, fantasy, contradictions and evolving folk tales is overwhelming.
Understand, I am a Cradle Creedal Christian raised in a Christian family, educated in a Christian School and a member of a recognized Christian Church.
I have no problem with you or any of the Evangelicals believing the nonsense you try to market but I certainly can only laugh when you claim any of it is evidence of anything more than your beliefs.
However should someone actually show up with evidence or even a reasoned argument then certainly I might be persuaded to reevaluate my position.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1250 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 9:13 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1257 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 1:03 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1253 of 1444 (881531)
08-25-2020 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1251 by Juvenissun
08-25-2020 9:15 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
That every religious nut down through the ages has claimed what they assert to be evidence when others look at it and just laugh.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1251 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 9:15 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1258 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 1:10 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1259 of 1444 (881558)
08-25-2020 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1257 by Juvenissun
08-25-2020 1:03 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
The creation alleged in the beginning in the Genesis 1 myth.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by Juvenissun, posted 08-25-2020 1:03 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1261 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 3:10 PM jar has replied
 Message 1267 by Juvenissun, posted 08-26-2020 6:43 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1263 of 1444 (881571)
08-25-2020 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1261 by Phat
08-25-2020 3:10 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
jar writes:
The creation alleged in the beginning in the Genesis 1 myth.
If it did not start with God, it started with your own ego and that of every other socratic critically thinking master who is(are) blind.
Phat, there is evidence of the universes beginning and of the beginning of life her on Earths and the evidence refutes the Just So story that is told in genesis 1.
Stop denying what can be seen and tested and verified only to embrace the fantasy.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1261 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 3:10 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1270 of 1444 (881649)
08-26-2020 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1267 by Juvenissun
08-26-2020 6:43 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
No scientific information is given in any of Genesis 1.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1267 by Juvenissun, posted 08-26-2020 6:43 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1271 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 8:52 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1273 of 1444 (881665)
08-27-2020 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1272 by Phat
08-27-2020 8:58 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
You really gotta stop misrepresenting what I say Phat.
Phat writes:
In regards to free will, it is a basis for your and my belief, but i'm not sure what old jar has to say about it except that he defends the rationale that God if God exists could not reasonably foreknow everything without being a God that should be opposed and rejected.
No Phat, that is not what I say.
Go back and read what I actually post, what is actually written.
Phat writes:
jars basic argument is that humans invent our ideas, beliefs, and concepts about GOD.
No Phat, that is not the argument but rather the conclusion based on all of the evidence I have provided you over the decades .
Do not continue misrepresenting what I do say.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1272 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 8:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1274 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 9:29 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1275 of 1444 (881669)
08-27-2020 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1274 by Phat
08-27-2020 9:29 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:
I attempt to separate the fantasy from the actuality. Do you respect the Book of Job?
Remember how you always state that humans are charged to correct God? What do you think about the comment from Eliphaz the Temanite? (Job 4:1)
Also note what God says to Job. Can you imagine God saying anything similar to you?
That is simply not rue Phat. You never even consider any actuality.
The Bible stories are filled with contradictions, falsehoods, ambiguity and fantasy Phat. The issue is that you like to pick just the parts that you like and deny those that get your panties in a wad.
Phat writes:
Do you believe that GOD ever speaks to humanity through the Bible or do you believe that human interpretation of what God might say are all that we really have?
ALL of the evidence supports the latter as a correct conclusion.
Phat writes:
What are you gonna do? Smite me? You misrepresent what I say all the time. If you cant hang on the porch, go back inside.
I will continue to point out every time you misrepresent what I say and also every time you refuse to address the issues raised and just palm the pea.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1274 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 9:29 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1276 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 11:37 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1277 of 1444 (881672)
08-27-2020 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1276 by Phat
08-27-2020 11:37 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:
So what does your precious evidence say about the origin of the universe?( And the whole marketing claim that Genesis was a Just-So story is entirely your gimmick. ) And it certainly hurts your claim that you are a believer.
Stop being intentionally stupid Phat.
The evidence says we can't say anything about the beginning of the universe so far.
And Phat, I am not so dumb as to confuse beliefs with knowledge.
Phat writes:
So explain why God would choose all people? Where does Hitler fit in? Pol Pot? You seem harder on the goats whom you believe will be mainly Christians than you are on them!
Stop being intentionally stupid Phat.
Read what I actually wrote. How is it possible that you can quote what I say yet demonstrate that you did not even READ what you quoted?
Read what was actually written Phat and then underline where I actually answered your questions in what you quoted.
Based on what I quoted, where would Hitler (a Christian by the way) and Pol Pot fit in?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 11:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1281 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 3:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1283 of 1444 (881698)
08-27-2020 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1281 by Phat
08-27-2020 3:04 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:
OK, but I might add that not all who claim to be Christians are automatically thus Christians. Understanding that might help. In fact, I think you already know that...since you might argue that Christians are judged by what they do. Hitler obviously did not do what a Christian is supposed to do.
Phat, anyone who is a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian is a Christian. And Christians are not identified by what they do. And Hitler was never judged guilty of not being a Christian; Christians can and often are and have been among the great evils of all history.
Phat writes:
According to the Sheep & Goats judgement, God may well have initially chosen all people, yet at the point of judgement He divides them up. You wont argue that both sheep and goats end up in Heaven, will you?(Of course none of us know)
Again Phat, what is actually written.
I argue that in the story all of the GOATS are followers of Jesus and none make the cut and instead they are all damned.
Phat writes:
Or are you telling me that GOD chose all people for Heaven? That's my basic question. If that is what you believe, i would find it incredulous.
And you are still showing that you have not even read or honestly thought about what I said.
An omniscient god that is creator of all that is, seen and unseen is the ultimate evil if anyone is damned to hell. Such a god is unworthy of respect or worship and must be condemned and opposed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1281 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 3:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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