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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
First of all lets get one thing straight.
Tangle,addressing ICANT writes: I never said that Hawking believed in a Creator. I said that Hawking had a problem with it. Learn to read.
Phat said it and you backed him Up.Tangle writes: Which is more bollux than anything you will find in the Bible. Even esteemed physics geniuses can be as wrong as any creationist. He, and others, say that the universe can create itself. Lets settle this issue. Do you believe that at one point in the past, perhaps at ICANTS imaginary (T=0) space where the maths break down that there was NOTHING? Or do you believe that there eternally was at least SOMETHING? And note one of my quotes in my signature:**************************************************************** The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy **************************************************************** So which came first? The WHO or the WHAT? There never could have been any point in time or before time that there was NOTHING. Unless you swallow the lie that the first observable thing was an idea in the Late Dr. Hawkings Mind. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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ringo writes: It might make more sense after we die. "Time does not exist" is a nonsense statement."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Oh hush with your jabberwocky!
I firmly believe that there is a reality after death and hope that I dont end up finding myself a goat. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The onus is on you to show why.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
We certainly never will no matter how long our species collectively lives.
We may find out that God is not fictional though."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But it may have something to do with what we learn after we die. You have no way of measuring that realm.
You doubt that "magic" exists. You are quite certain that God (as described by apologists) does not exist. Yet I am here to tell you that hooking up ten of the worlds most powerful supercomputers in order to quantify the problem would take virtually an infinite number of years, while God could give you the answer the moment after you died. But of course you will say that this is an empty claim and that it is magical fantasy. You bow at the altar of evidence. Evidence can only be verified through human wisdom. And human wisdom is never going to replace God. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You have nothing but human wisdom to tell you anything about God. Human wisdom is the ultimate backup. When I got saved,it was certainly not due to human wisdom. Human wisdom may seek favorable sources to "verify" an existing belief, but it can also be used as a tool with which to question oneself. Human wisdom is not always a reliable backup. Sometimes human wisdom is a source of confusion."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: If so, there is no reason to think that God is even necessary. There is no reason to think that if He does exist He has the capability of communing with us. You have thrown the Holy Baby out with the bathwater and placed all of your chips on human wisdom and our interpretation of evidence. Shame on you. The writers were not there either - and there's no reason to think their source was accurate."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo, to ICANT writes: Dont you see how your thought process mirrors my quote exactly? I think and believe that a WHO created the universe and defines reality whereas you believe that a WHAT(Logic and evidence defined by humans) created all that is real and actual. It doesn't matter what you think - and there's no reason to think that that part of the story is accurate either."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Greetings, Pastor. I was woken early this morning and felt that I had to comment on Genesis, the Bible, the origin of humans, and the reality of math before humanity as well as God before humanity. (Sometimes I wake up with weird thoughts and musings )
I noticed how you and our old member arachnophilia discussed and debated early Hebrew, notably in Message 37 and thereabouts. I am not a word for word Biblical literalist, but I do use common sense in speculation about the distant past. For example: I do not believe that humans were created before animals. In fact, I tend to believe that there were early animals that resembled humans and that humans may well have came from these animals. Humans, in my mind, became humans when they reached a certain level of awareness. One would think that having a memory (apart from instinct) an ability to record information (through a book, a cave drawing, cuneiform, oral storytelling tradition, or the ability to talk to ourselves in our head and form memories) would differentiate a human with a name from an animal with no need to name itself or anything else. In my mind, the Bible contains many absolute truths.
Do we really think that God literally created plants before the sun? Or does the method of ancient Hebrew lay it all out and then it gets assembled into words and meaning through the early writers? In other words, did the early writers of Genesis actually transcribe what Gods audible voice or mental impression told them to write, literally at that moment in time? Or were they more likely only impressed with the idea that I AM God and besides me there is no other? Did they (the early writers) then fill in the blanks of the story based on their own understanding? Do you get where I am coming from?
In this declaration, I affirm that I am a Cosmological Creationist. I am not a word for word Biblical Literalist but I will say that I am a thought for thought Biblical Literalist. God gave me a brain and a mind for a reason. So allow me to go off on a limb. People often have a problem with God being the uncaused first cause, yet they have no problem with math predating humanity or chemicals predating humanity. They may often ask "Who created God"? but they never ask Who created Math? They never ask Who created Chemicals? They never ask Who created Matter Initially? I just want to bring this up. Would math have any meaning if it could not be explained through the interaction of numbers? Would chemicals have any creative ability were they not defined and seperated based on the Elemental Table? So a question to all of us.Who separated light from dark? Absolute truth from Relative truth? The laws of math from a jumble of random speculation? The law of precise combination of cheemicals that produced elements? (well...you guys know what I am trying to say ) For all practical purposes, what differentiates the beginning of the universe from the beginning of the earth? And what differentiates the beginning of the earth from the beginning of human awareness? And if humans can declare with confidence that math had numbers before human awareness and that chemicals had laws of combination and formation before human quantification of these laws, why is it so hard for us as humans to imagine a God who is eternal and who gave us the wisdom to define math and define the elemental table? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Granted. The Creator of all seen and unseen would logically be called a WHAT were it not for the human Jesus Christ who scripture tells us was in the beginning with God. Thus, if "through Him all things were created" then it is appropriate to say WHO rather than WHAT. We usually use the word "who" for humans. An entity so far above us would more appropriately be called a "what". The difference is that my what exists."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
This is one of your basic problems as a believer. You never hear anything that God says but (as you believe) only what you hear and read what men say that God said. Since you never hear from God directly, all that you have is an argument that we are charged to be good little secular humanists, do what Jesus commanded, and throw God away.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
The Creator of all seen and unseen would logically be called a WHAT were it not for the human Jesus Christ who scripture tells us was in the beginning with God.ringo writes: Is not the Gospel of John classified as scripture?
Scripture doesn't say that. Apologists do.John 1:1-3-NKJV writes: The Word is Jesus Christ. Care to argue?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. John 1:10-13 writes:
It is obvious. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.Both scriptures are talking about Jesus Christ. And note that as many as received Him to them He gave the right to become children of God. Not simply everybody. Everybody did not receive Him. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
That scripture does not refer to the message. The message would never be described as a "He".
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: The incarnation of the message was a He. I'll take that statement as a win for both of us!
ringo writes: Ill have to study this one a bit more.It makes sense to me, but I cannot yet explain why. Perhaps you can explain why it makes no sense to you. Calling Jesus "the Word" makes no sense."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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