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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1239 of 1444 (881508)
08-24-2020 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1228 by Phat
08-24-2020 4:10 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
If the answer was ever truly in your head and your heart and the answer was Jesus Christ, I would argue that you cant really outgrow Him as easily as you would a Santa Claus myth, spaghetti monster mythos, or any other fool thing that humans believe.
Stop saying you "would argue" when all you ever do is assert. And stop using the No True Christian PRATT.
Phat writes:
Unless you finally concluded that human wisdom made God rather than the other way around. In which case I argue that you are WRONG.
Again, that's not an argument. It's pretty clear you don't have one.
Phat writes:
Science and its method are great for telling us facts about material reality but are no better than spiritual belief and experience at defining and/or disproving God.
Yes they are. Science shows us that your version of spiritual belief is no different from the thousands of other versions of spiritual belief.
Phat writes:
You simply chose to no longer believe...
Stop lying about me.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1228 by Phat, posted 08-24-2020 4:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1241 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 1:44 AM ringo has replied
 Message 1245 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 5:57 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1254 of 1444 (881543)
08-25-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1241 by Phat
08-25-2020 1:44 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
All that I have are my experiences. Experiences that you likely never had.
As I have told you before, you should assume that I have had the same experiences as you.
The difference is that you have interpreted them incorrectly. You use the believe-everything-the-apologists-tell-you method. I use the nothing-is-true-without-good-reason method.
Phat writes:
I had many reasons I could have used to leave the faith. Whats the difference between you and I?
The difference is that I had no reason to stay while you had no reason to leave - i.e. the apologists hadn't told you to leave.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1241 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 1:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1255 of 1444 (881544)
08-25-2020 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1240 by Phat
08-25-2020 1:41 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
... no human could imitate such a sound...
You don't know that.
Phat writes:
Did you realize that at worst, you were definitely experiencing something unexplained?
I see things all the time that I can't explain. I don't assume that nobody can explain them.
What you see is not "unexplained". See Tangle's explanation. The problem is that you reject the explanation.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1240 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 1:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1256 of 1444 (881545)
08-25-2020 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1245 by Phat
08-25-2020 5:57 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:
All that science shows us is that people can and do believe anything.
That's what I said. And your anything is no different from anybody else's anything.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1245 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 5:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1278 of 1444 (881680)
08-27-2020 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1272 by Phat
08-27-2020 8:58 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:
You are throwing the Holy Baby out with the bathwater.
Stop using that silly metaphor. We've been through it. There is no baby in the bathwater.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1272 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 8:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1279 of 1444 (881683)
08-27-2020 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1276 by Phat
08-27-2020 11:37 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:
So explain why God would choose all people?
1. Why should anybody have to explain God's choices to you?
2. Why should God's choices make sense to you?
3. Why don't you ask Him yourself during your "communion"?
4. Why would He only choose only the apologists and you?
5. Why don't you answer the questions people ask you?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 11:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1282 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 3:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1286 of 1444 (881714)
08-27-2020 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1282 by Phat
08-27-2020 3:10 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:
If we disagree, you need God explained to you.
I said, "God's CHOICES." What makes you so arrogant as to think you can explain God's choices?
Phat writes:
You evidently have mistaken some spaghetti monster or Loki for the real deal.
There's no evident difference.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Why don't you ask Him yourself during your "communion"?
Trust me I often do.
Then why are you so clueless? You should be able to answer all of those unanswered posts with no problem.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Why would He only choose only the apologists and you?
I have mentioned before that He might even choose jar and yourself, despite your critically thinking minds that don't try and get to know Him.
Maybe that's His point. Maybe He's using jar and me to try to drum some critical thinking into you.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Why don't you answer the questions people ask you?
Why dont you join the winning team instead of fighting us all of the time?
How can your team be winning if you can't answer the questions? How can you score at all when you keep running away from the ball?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1282 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 3:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1287 of 1444 (881715)
08-27-2020 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1284 by Juvenissun
08-27-2020 5:23 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Juvenissun writes:
The FACT that Christianity exists, says that free will exists.
And the fact that Judaism exists means what? And the fact that Islam exists means what? And the fact that Buddhism exists means what? And the fact that Mormonism exists means what?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 5:23 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1288 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 10:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1290 of 1444 (881734)
08-28-2020 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1288 by Juvenissun
08-27-2020 10:27 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Juvenissun writes:
What you need to improve is to ask question related to the issue of discussion.
My questions were directly related to what you posted. Even my phraseology directly mirrored yours.
Juvenissun writes:
In your case, question is cheap.
You gave a ten-dollar response that didn't answer a ten-cent question. You'll save yourself a lot of trouble if you just debate in good faith instead of whining about how other people debate.
Juvenissun writes:
Good question is hard to ask. You are not able to evaluate your own question yet.
You've told me yourself in other threads that I ask good questions. Try to get your story straight.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1288 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 10:27 PM Juvenissun has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1291 of 1444 (881735)
08-28-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by Phat
08-28-2020 10:11 AM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
Phat writes:
I believe that on one level, Christians who pray often and imagine a connection to God personally and not simply corporately by listening to Pastors, Evangelists and Apologists actually *do* have an idea or impression as to how God thinks....
The evidence doesn't support that.
Phat writes:
If God chooses to relate to humanity through Jesus Christ, I...being also human...may have an inkling as to Gods choices in regards to humanity on this planet.
But you reject almost everything that Jesus said.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 10:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1292 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 2:26 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1293 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 4:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1294 of 1444 (881751)
08-28-2020 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Phat
08-28-2020 2:26 PM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
Phat writes:
Are you telling me that The Evidence supports a contrarian point of view?
I'm telling you that the evidence doesn't support your claim that your "communion" with God gives you special knowledge.
Phat writes:
I am asserting that God has been adequately explained through people whom are more in touch with Him than are the rest of you yahoos.
The evidence does not support that assertion. If it did, you would be providing the evidence instead of constantly scoffing at the idea of evidence.
Phat writes:
We can all become socialists, humanists and a unified planet of people relying only on ourselves to forge a brave new secular path into the future. Right?
We can all become more like Jesus. Right.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 2:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1295 of 1444 (881753)
08-28-2020 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1293 by Phat
08-28-2020 4:03 PM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
Phat writes:
Phat writes:
But you reject almost everything that Jesus said.
That isnt true and you know it.
It is true. You reject what He told the rich young ruler. You reject the prodigal son parable.
Phat writes:
I reject the idea that you have embraced of taking Jesus message and applying it to socialism...
I'm not applying anything. I'm directly quoting what He said.
Phat writes:
What I reject is secular humanism, not Jesus Christ.
Jesus was a humanist.
You're just using "socialist" and "humanist" as buzzwords without the dlightest understanding of what they mean.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 4:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1299 of 1444 (881795)
08-30-2020 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by Phat
08-30-2020 2:30 PM


Re: Omniscience Specifically
Phat writes:
It is taught that not ALL belong to this Body.
That teaching is a lie. See the story of the prodigal son.
Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by Phat, posted 08-30-2020 2:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1301 by Phat, posted 08-31-2020 5:23 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1303 of 1444 (881808)
08-31-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1301 by Phat
08-31-2020 5:23 AM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
Phat writes:
Calling evil good and good evil are we?
You are, yes.
Phat writes:
If I told you that it was you who were taught the lies...
I would remind you that I wasn't taught anything. I just read what the text says.
Phat writes:
... you would demand that I do more than assert it.
I have tried to get you to do more than assert it but you never do. AND you refuse to discuss the lies that YOU have learned.
Phat writes:
Jesus taught that the road to destruction was broad and that many follow it and that the road of truth was a narrow road and few would find it.
And that contradicts your claim that your theology is mainstream.
Phat writes:
He certainly never implied that ALL would find it nor that ALL would make it to Heaven.
He said that He came to save ALL of us. He tried to tell YOU that YOU aren't going to make it if all you do is mouth Lord! Lord!
Phat writes:
Believing in the message without belief in the resurrected Jesus Christ is an empty belief.
You're contradicting Jesus.
Phat writes:
Back to your old buddy, the snake again...who you claim told the truth, even when the Lie was and is that we can all be just like Jesus without need of God (Elohim)...
The snake said no such thing. He said Adam and Eve would not die the same day that they ate the fruit. And they didn't. The snake told the truth.
Phat writes:
Not only that, but the snake in todays world whispers to us that God is but a myth and does not exist. Satans lie has begun to replace Gods truth.
You're just making up your own story.
Phat writes:
Again, a son is "whosoever" recognizes and respects the father.
The story of the prodigal son says the exact opposite: The father accepted the prodigal son unconditionally. The prodigal son was valued above the obedient son.
Phat writes:
Do you honestly think that the Father would kill the fatted calf simply for some entitled bozo who walked into the shelter, grabbed a free meal, then left the shelter to mosey on down to the corner bar?
The entitled bozo was the obedient son, like you. The father DID kill the fatted calf for the prodigal one. It says that at plain as day.
Phat writes:
The Father will accept anyone of us home. But the son must acknowledge what his home is.
No. That's not what the story says.
The father saw his son far away and went to meet him and welcome him home. He had no way of knowing whether or not the son had repented. WE don't know whether the son repented. It isn't important to the story.
It's getting very frustrating listening to you lie through your teeth about the Bible.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1301 by Phat, posted 08-31-2020 5:23 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1304 by Phat, posted 08-31-2020 2:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1305 of 1444 (881828)
09-01-2020 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1304 by Phat
08-31-2020 2:31 PM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
Phat writes:
Just because im "making stuff up" does not mean it is a lie.
It is when you've been shown repeatedly that it isn't true.
Phat writes:
And just because you interpret the scripture the way that you claim it reads does not mean that you are sharing the truth.
It isn't a "claim". It DOES say what it says. Anybody who reads it can see what it says.
Phat writes:
5 people reading the plain text may get 5 differing interpretive meanings from it.
No they won't. You might get one or two very minor deviations but you won't get the exact opposite like your claims. The snake said they wouldn't die and they didn't. Anybody who reads that will read it correctly - unless they have been indoctrinated in apologist lies.
Phat writes:
Stop andd think.
YOU stop and think. I have challenged you before to go back and answer your unanswered posts. If you actually THINK instead of just regurgitating what you have been spoon-fed, maybe you'll be able to discuss the topic honestly.
Phat writes:
If the scripture really did come inspirationally from an omniscient God through human authors, who is to say that there are also those He has chosen to interpret the message and spread the Word?
If that was true, there would be no point in us ordinary peons reading the Bible at all. But if the peons aren't smart enough to read the Bible, how can they tell whether the apologists' interpretations have any merit?
Phat writes:
And if the scripture was merely the intended mythos and story from various human authors, what is the harm of interpreting it the way that we choose?
It isn't harmful to me. It's harmful to you. It's the equivalent of taking your life savings in return for a bottle of snake oil.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1304 by Phat, posted 08-31-2020 2:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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