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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2546 of 3207 (880954)
08-15-2020 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 2545 by Tangle
08-15-2020 2:38 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
First of all lets get one thing straight.
Tangle,addressing ICANT writes:
Phat said it and you backed him Up.
I never said that Hawking believed in a Creator. I said that Hawking had a problem with it. Learn to read.
Tangle writes:
He, and others, say that the universe can create itself.
Which is more bollux than anything you will find in the Bible. Even esteemed physics geniuses can be as wrong as any creationist.
Lets settle this issue.
Do you believe that at one point in the past, perhaps at ICANTS imaginary (T=0) space where the maths break down that there was NOTHING? Or do you believe that there eternally was at least SOMETHING?
And note one of my quotes in my signature:
****************************************************************
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
****************************************************************
So which came first? The WHO or the WHAT?
There never could have been any point in time or before time that there was NOTHING. Unless you swallow the lie that the first observable thing was an idea in the Late Dr. Hawkings Mind.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2545 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2020 2:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2548 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2020 10:15 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 2555 by ICANT, posted 08-15-2020 2:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 2563 of 3207 (881000)
08-16-2020 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2562 by ringo
08-16-2020 9:39 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
"Time does not exist" is a nonsense statement.
It might make more sense after we die.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2562 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 9:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2564 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 10:51 AM Phat has replied
 Message 2568 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2565 of 3207 (881003)
08-16-2020 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 2564 by jar
08-16-2020 10:51 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Oh hush with your jabberwocky!
I firmly believe that there is a reality after death and hope that I dont end up finding myself a goat.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2564 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 10:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2566 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 12:17 PM Phat has replied
 Message 2603 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2020 5:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2567 of 3207 (881011)
08-16-2020 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2566 by jar
08-16-2020 12:17 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
The onus is on you to show why.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2566 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 12:17 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2569 of 3207 (881015)
08-16-2020 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2568 by ringo
08-16-2020 3:06 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
We certainly never will no matter how long our species collectively lives.
We may find out that God is not fictional though.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2568 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2570 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2571 of 3207 (881021)
08-16-2020 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2570 by ringo
08-16-2020 3:19 PM


After We Die
But it may have something to do with what we learn after we die. You have no way of measuring that realm.
You doubt that "magic" exists. You are quite certain that God (as described by apologists) does not exist. Yet I am here to tell you that hooking up ten of the worlds most powerful supercomputers in order to quantify the problem would take virtually an infinite number of years, while God could give you the answer the moment after you died. But of course you will say that this is an empty claim and that it is magical fantasy.
You bow at the altar of evidence. Evidence can only be verified through human wisdom. And human wisdom is never going to replace God.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2570 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2572 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2573 of 3207 (881029)
08-16-2020 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2572 by ringo
08-16-2020 3:51 PM


Re: After We Die
You have nothing but human wisdom to tell you anything about God. Human wisdom is the ultimate backup.
When I got saved,it was certainly not due to human wisdom. Human wisdom may seek favorable sources to "verify" an existing belief, but it can also be used as a tool with which to question oneself. Human wisdom is not always a reliable backup. Sometimes human wisdom is a source of confusion.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2572 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2574 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 4:12 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2633 of 3207 (881346)
08-22-2020 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2632 by ringo
08-22-2020 12:26 PM


Re: After We Die
ringo writes:
The writers were not there either - and there's no reason to think their source was accurate.
If so, there is no reason to think that God is even necessary. There is no reason to think that if He does exist He has the capability of communing with us. You have thrown the Holy Baby out with the bathwater and placed all of your chips on human wisdom and our interpretation of evidence. Shame on you.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2632 by ringo, posted 08-22-2020 12:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2634 by Coragyps, posted 08-22-2020 6:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2636 by ringo, posted 08-23-2020 10:08 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2644 of 3207 (881458)
08-24-2020 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2641 by ringo
08-24-2020 10:01 AM


Re: [qs=Re: After We Die
ringo, to ICANT writes:
It doesn't matter what you think - and there's no reason to think that that part of the story is accurate either.
Dont you see how your thought process mirrors my quote exactly? I think and believe that a WHO created the universe and defines reality whereas you believe that a WHAT(Logic and evidence defined by humans) created all that is real and actual.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2641 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 10:01 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2645 by jar, posted 08-24-2020 5:16 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 2647 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 8:56 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2650 of 3207 (881660)
08-27-2020 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 2648 by ICANT
08-26-2020 1:40 PM


Science vs Philosophy. Is there a common ground?
Greetings, Pastor. I was woken early this morning and felt that I had to comment on Genesis, the Bible, the origin of humans, and the reality of math before humanity as well as God before humanity. (Sometimes I wake up with weird thoughts and musings )
I noticed how you and our old member arachnophilia discussed and debated early Hebrew, notably in Message 37 and thereabouts. I am not a word for word Biblical literalist, but I do use common sense in speculation about the distant past. For example:
I do not believe that humans were created before animals. In fact, I tend to believe that there were early animals that resembled humans and that humans may well have came from these animals. Humans, in my mind, became humans when they reached a certain level of awareness. One would think that having a memory (apart from instinct) an ability to record information (through a book, a cave drawing, cuneiform, oral storytelling tradition, or the ability to talk to ourselves in our head and form memories) would differentiate a human with a name from an animal with no need to name itself or anything else. In my mind, the Bible contains many absolute truths.
  • God initially created everything.
    Do we really think that God literally created plants before the sun? Or does the method of ancient Hebrew lay it all out and then it gets assembled into words and meaning through the early writers? In other words, did the early writers of Genesis actually transcribe what Gods audible voice or mental impression told them to write, literally at that moment in time? Or were they more likely only impressed with the idea that I AM God and besides me there is no other? Did they (the early writers) then fill in the blanks of the story based on their own understanding? Do you get where I am coming from?
  • God related to chosen men and women yet not simply to every homo sapiens that waundered the planet. God was not created by human minds, yet it may well be true that God was understood through the attempts of humans to describe Him. God may well have been always the same Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who was in the beginning with GOD Creator of all seen and unseen. Does that make sense?
  • God created the entire universe.
    In this declaration, I affirm that I am a Cosmological Creationist. I am not a word for word Biblical Literalist but I will say that I am a thought for thought Biblical Literalist. God gave me a brain and a mind for a reason. So allow me to go off on a limb.
    People often have a problem with God being the uncaused first cause, yet they have no problem with math predating humanity or chemicals predating humanity. They may often ask "Who created God"? but they never ask Who created Math? They never ask Who created Chemicals? They never ask Who created Matter Initially? I just want to bring this up.
    Would math have any meaning if it could not be explained through the interaction of numbers? Would chemicals have any creative ability were they not defined and seperated based on the Elemental Table?
    So a question to all of us.
    Who separated light from dark? Absolute truth from Relative truth? The laws of math from a jumble of random speculation? The law of precise combination of cheemicals that produced elements? (well...you guys know what I am trying to say )
    For all practical purposes, what differentiates the beginning of the universe from the beginning of the earth? And what differentiates the beginning of the earth from the beginning of human awareness?
    And if humans can declare with confidence that math had numbers before human awareness and that chemicals had laws of combination and formation before human quantification of these laws, why is it so hard for us as humans to imagine a God who is eternal and who gave us the wisdom to define math and define the elemental table?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 2648 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2020 1:40 PM ICANT has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 2651 of 3207 (881661)
    08-27-2020 8:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 2647 by ringo
    08-24-2020 8:56 PM


    WHO WHAT WHEN and WHERE
    ringo writes:
    We usually use the word "who" for humans. An entity so far above us would more appropriately be called a "what". The difference is that my what exists.
    Granted. The Creator of all seen and unseen would logically be called a WHAT were it not for the human Jesus Christ who scripture tells us was in the beginning with God. Thus, if "through Him all things were created" then it is appropriate to say WHO rather than WHAT.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2647 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 8:56 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2652 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:13 AM Phat has replied
     Message 2655 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 12:42 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 2653 of 3207 (881668)
    08-27-2020 9:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 2652 by jar
    08-27-2020 9:13 AM


    Re: WHO WHAT WHEN and WHERE
    This is one of your basic problems as a believer. You never hear anything that God says but (as you believe) only what you hear and read what men say that God said. Since you never hear from God directly, all that you have is an argument that we are charged to be good little secular humanists, do what Jesus commanded, and throw God away.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2652 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:13 AM jar has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 2656 of 3207 (881694)
    08-27-2020 3:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 2655 by ringo
    08-27-2020 12:42 PM


    Re: WHO WHAT WHEN and WHERE
    Phat writes:
    The Creator of all seen and unseen would logically be called a WHAT were it not for the human Jesus Christ who scripture tells us was in the beginning with God.
    ringo writes:
    Scripture doesn't say that. Apologists do.
    Is not the Gospel of John classified as scripture?
    John 1:1-3-NKJV writes:
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
    The Word is Jesus Christ. Care to argue?
    John 1:10-13 writes:
    He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    It is obvious.
    Both scriptures are talking about Jesus Christ.
    And note that as many as received Him to them He gave the right to become children of God. Not simply everybody. Everybody did not receive Him.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2655 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 12:42 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2657 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 9:31 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 2658 of 3207 (881741)
    08-28-2020 2:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 2657 by ringo
    08-27-2020 9:31 PM


    Re: WHO WHAT WHEN and WHERE
    That scripture does not refer to the message. The message would never be described as a "He".

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2657 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 9:31 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2661 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 9:07 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 2663 of 3207 (881759)
    08-29-2020 5:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 2661 by ringo
    08-28-2020 9:07 PM


    Re: WHO WHAT WHEN and WHERE
    ringo writes:
    The incarnation of the message was a He.
    I'll take that statement as a win for both of us!
    ringo writes:
    Calling Jesus "the Word" makes no sense.
    Ill have to study this one a bit more.It makes sense to me, but I cannot yet explain why. Perhaps you can explain why it makes no sense to you.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2661 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 9:07 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2664 by ringo, posted 08-29-2020 12:16 PM Phat has not replied

      
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