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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1246 of 1444 (881519)
08-25-2020 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1244 by Phat
08-25-2020 5:50 AM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Why are you still here Phat? I'm here because it fascinates me watching delusional people at work and wondering wtf? But you're convinced by this nonsense yet still doubt it so much that you have to constantly argue it. It's like you have to pit yourself against reality to prove your own delusion.
Just for the record and ignoring the faked, those 'manifestations' are likely to be real - that is felt as real by those that experience them - that is, the poor sods that experience them are so sucked in by the charismatic nonsense that's all around them that they really do experience it. But it's a mental disorder, ffs.
quote:
Those who profess a belief in demonic possession, also referred to as possessive trance disorder,[1] have sometimes ascribed to possession the symptoms associated with physical or mental illnesses, such as hysteria, Tourette syndrome, epilepsy,[34] schizophrenia,[35]conversion disorder or dissociative identity disorder.[36] In its article on Dissociative Identity Disorder, the DSM-5 states, "Possession-form identities in dissociative identity disorder typically manifest as behaviors that appear as if a 'spirit,' supernatural being, or outside person has taken control such that the individual begins speaking or acting in a distinctly different manner.[37]" It is not uncommon to ascribe the experience of sleep paralysis to demonic possession, although it's not a physical or mental illness.[38] The symptoms vary across cultures.[39] Demonic possession is not a valid psychiatric or medical diagnosis recognized by either the DSM-5 or the ICD-10.[40] The DSM-5 indicates that personality states of dissociative identity disorder may be interpreted as possession in some cultures, and instances of spirit possession are often related to traumatic experiencessuggesting that possession experiences may be caused by mental distress.[41] Some have expressed concern that belief in demonic possession can limit access to health care for the mentally ill.[42] Studies have found that alleged demonic possessions can be related to trauma.[41]
Spirit possession - Wikipedia
And, of course, this delusion is seen in many religious groups; it's not simply Christian.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1244 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 5:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1262 of 1444 (881569)
08-25-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1260 by Stile
08-25-2020 2:53 PM


Stile writes:
But none of these things indicate that I do not "have this thing we call freewill."
Not much point mentioning them then.
I may not be able to do any of the things above, due to the constraints upon my freewill.
With the exception of killing the baby, you are not able to do those things at all, ever. They are not humanly possible. It is not your alleged freewill that prevents you, it's physics.
Sure - empathy is one of the many, many things that constrains (to varying degrees) my ability to choose "whatever I want."
So you accept that your freewill is limited. Ok.
If I mis-understood you, and you just meant that constraints exist upon our freewill, even though we still have freewill...
Then I absolutely agree.
Well nearly. I actually say that because our freewill is bounded by all sorts of constraints, some simply internal, we do not actually have freewill in the religious sense at all. It's simply another religious fiction. Our ability to choose between good and evil is not entirely possible.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1260 by Stile, posted 08-25-2020 2:53 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1264 by Stile, posted 08-25-2020 4:05 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1269 by Juvenissun, posted 08-26-2020 6:51 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1265 of 1444 (881577)
08-25-2020 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1264 by Stile
08-25-2020 4:05 PM


Stile writes:
I can't choose to "kill a baby without feeling remorse."
But I can choose to "kill a baby."
I don't believe that you could actually kill a baby just because you wanted to, or to prove that you could.
The odds are against you being a psychopath and even further against you being the kind that kills.
So unless you want to tell me that you are a psychopath, I saying that you, like most of us can't just kill babies on a whim.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1264 by Stile, posted 08-25-2020 4:05 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1266 by Stile, posted 08-26-2020 12:04 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1268 by Juvenissun, posted 08-26-2020 6:46 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1296 of 1444 (881758)
08-29-2020 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1293 by Phat
08-28-2020 4:03 PM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
Phat writes:
What I reject is secular humanism, [and socialism] not Jesus Christ.
You reject
Do as you would be done by and Love thy neighbour
?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 4:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1297 of 1444 (881771)
08-30-2020 4:09 AM


Humanists believe that human beings produced the progressive advance of human society and also the ills that plague it. They believe that if the ills are to be alleviated, it is humanity that will have to do the job.
Isaac Asimov.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1298 by Phat, posted 08-30-2020 2:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1300 of 1444 (881796)
08-30-2020 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by Phat
08-30-2020 2:30 PM


Re: Omniscience Specifically
Phat writes:
Christians believe that God is Spirit. They believe in One Holy Spirit and basically in One Body of Christ...the Church.
I wonder if even you know what that means. If anything.
Christians are not by any means 100% unified in their beliefs regarding issues in the world, but by and large Christians also believe that humans produced the progressive advance of human society
There's no one else going to do it is there? Conspicuous absence is the term.
They believe that if the ills are to be alleviated, it is necessary for societ6y to surrender to the Spirit of God and get rid of all the internal ills and mental; blocks that the lesser counterfeit light uses us for.
More meaningless drivel. pseudo-religous, contentless nonsense. What on earth do you think that means?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by Phat, posted 08-30-2020 2:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1319 of 1444 (881889)
09-03-2020 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1318 by Phat
09-03-2020 12:04 PM


Re: Returning to The Topic
Phat writes:
Thus, I can now see jars argument. (I think)
You've heard that argument spelled out by all of us here, several times a year for several years. It's not hard, in fact it's blindingly obvious, how come you're only just seeing it? If you are.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1318 by Phat, posted 09-03-2020 12:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 09-03-2020 12:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1325 of 1444 (881904)
09-03-2020 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Phat
09-03-2020 12:24 PM


Re: Returning to The Topic
Phat writes:
Some things take time.
Only if you fight your mind. This is very, very simple stuff, but you have to switch off that bit of your mind that can't let you think.
And I never learned it from you
You didn't learn it from anyone Phat, it's been pointed out to you hundreds of times.
...you don't even believe that God exists so how could you have taught me?
You see, you still haven't got it. It's logic, not belief.
Phat writes:
Thus, if God theoretically knew what I would choose He would also know on a day by day basis what I am choosing (day by day) and if I ended up damned it really would be His fault for not speaking to me in the still small voice which I believe He does have.
That isn't hard is it? The next step is to see that if god is all knowing and knows what you'll do before you were born and also knows that you'll murder someone but still sends you to hell for all eternity, then he's evil. At the very least, he doesn't love you.
O Tangled one, perhaps we should go fishing.
Anytime. Always.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 09-03-2020 12:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1336 of 1444 (882869)
10-22-2020 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1330 by Phat
10-22-2020 10:52 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
Is a parent responsible for their childs behavior beyond the age of accountability?
Parents do not have foreknowledge of what their offspring will do, do they?
If a parent knew in advance and for sure that, for example, their offspring would go on to eradicate millions of people in a mass genocide but went on and had the child anyway, would they be responsible?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1330 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 10:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1339 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 9:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1340 of 1444 (882879)
10-23-2020 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1339 by Phat
10-22-2020 9:11 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
How can they be responsible for the childs decisions?
They're not responsible for their child's decisions, they're responsible for THEIR decision to have a child knowing in advance what that child would do.
They would be responsible if they aborted the baby, however. Responsible for one death rather than many thousands, you might say.
Forget abortion. It's possible not to get pregnant at all. Would you have a child knowing in advance that he would murder a million people? Do you think it morally reasonable to just shrug and say 'not my problem?'
Try it another way. Would you give a gun to someone who you knew for certain would use it to kill children at a school? Would you have any morally responsible for the murders?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1339 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 9:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1347 by Phat, posted 10-24-2020 2:48 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1355 of 1444 (882896)
10-24-2020 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1347 by Phat
10-24-2020 2:48 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
No. But its different applying this argument to indict God.
How so? Seemingly you have higher moral values than your god.
Perhaps He never should have created humans at all then....according to your logic.
It's not MY logic Phat, it's just logic. That's the only moral position isn't it? If you do something with the certain knowledge that harm will come of it, you're doing something that is immoral.
OR more precisely he should have only created good humans. In which case one could argue that by allowing Satan to exist, God blew the whole deal BIG TIME
Well sure, that's what you've heard me argue many times. What's more he actually KNEW he would blow it. Weird huh?
But should we hold the initial creator/inventor of guns responsible for all deaths made by guns?
Well that's a difficult but human question. We can't seem to avoid inventing things that although we can't know specifically how they will lead to harm, we can know that harm must necessary follow. The nuclear bomb only had one purpose after all. Humans do this stuff because we're evolved apes that struggle to live with each other, but a God? No chance.
You've proven to live on a higher moral plane than the god you worship.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1347 by Phat, posted 10-24-2020 2:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1367 of 1444 (883120)
11-07-2020 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1366 by Phat
11-07-2020 10:47 AM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:
As of yet, in all my prayers, I have never heard Him tell me to give it all up
Has he ever told you to do anything you'd rather not?
except metaphorically.
hmmm, do I smell another get out clause?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1366 by Phat, posted 11-07-2020 10:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1368 by Phat, posted 11-07-2020 2:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1369 of 1444 (883132)
11-07-2020 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1368 by Phat
11-07-2020 2:30 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:
I'll tell you one thing...I'm not gonna walk around like a barefoot hippie preaching love if I don't even have a pot to piss in. If you guys get to keep your stuff I'm sure keeping mine.;
Well that's ok with me, only a total loon would do it. We're just pointing out that your book requires it of you.
Ringo and you insist that Jesus is just a character in a book of rules written by humans. Granted you can charge mee with making Him up, but I stand by the Jesus I pray to and commune with. He is no mere statue or icon.
Sure, we know that's what you think.
You guys just brought up the suggestion for me to give up everything I had in order to show me how weak my faith actually is.
Nope, we're just pointing out the contradictions in your belief.
Thanks a lot!
Welcome. But you didn't actually answer my question, has god ever asked you to do anything you didn't want to do?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1368 by Phat, posted 11-07-2020 2:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1370 by Phat, posted 11-10-2020 11:25 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1371 of 1444 (883175)
11-11-2020 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1370 by Phat
11-10-2020 11:25 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:
Though I'm not 100% sure it was God asking me to do it rather than my intuitive mind,
Yes, I can see that that might be a difficulty... But you seem to be only having cause to doubt God's voice when it's asking you to do something you don't want to do?
I believe that I have been told that I am to fast for 3 days. I know that it is logical and rational, yet I can't make myself do it. So far, that is...
The words 'logical' and 'rational' don't apply here Phat.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1370 by Phat, posted 11-10-2020 11:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1372 by Phat, posted 11-11-2020 1:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1373 of 1444 (883177)
11-11-2020 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1372 by Phat
11-11-2020 1:48 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:
It is always wise to question(not doubt, necessarily) what inner voice or unction that I have. The Bible tells us to test the spirits.
But you only seem to find reasons to question stuff that you don't want to do?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1372 by Phat, posted 11-11-2020 1:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1374 by Phat, posted 11-13-2020 4:06 AM Tangle has replied

  
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