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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1245 of 1444 (881517)
08-25-2020 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1239 by ringo
08-24-2020 9:07 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
ringo writes:
Science shows us that your version of spiritual belief is no different from the thousands of other versions of spiritual belief.
All that science shows us is that people can and do believe anything. I happen to believe that all of the beliefs are beliefs in philosophical concepts and/or wannabe gods. You and Tangle will tell me that I am sticking to exclusivity in the belief that I was culturally raised in. Its a good argument--I certainly cant prove otherwise to you. You also will argue that you guys simply believe in one less God than I do....and lump beliefs in general into a relativistic camp.
You will defend your positions by claiming that you were believers just as much as I am now. I highly doubt it though cannot prove it. Some arguments I just cant win.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1239 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 9:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1256 by ringo, posted 08-25-2020 12:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1261 of 1444 (881568)
08-25-2020 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1259 by jar
08-25-2020 2:08 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
It is sad to read what you and ringo market, but I will attempt yet again to share my position. Understand that I cannot provide the evidence that critically thinking scientists require, but the critical thinking scientists such as Dr.John Lennox did not arrive at their belief through the scientific method. That is simply a silly assumption.
jar writes:
The evidence that the Bible is simply a human creation and filled with errors, impossibilities, fantasy, contradictions and evolving folk tales is overwhelming.
Impossibilities? With God all things are possible. God is no magic genie, however.
Understand, I am a Cradle Creedal Christian raised in a Christian family, educated in a Christian School and a member of a recognized Christian Church.
Your credentials are unimpressive to me. You are not a proponent or advocate for Christianity. What you have done is attempted to hijack the belief and redefine what being a Christian really is. If everyone listened to you and actually did what you advocate, the world would be a better place only if God agreed that Jesus was unnecessary to be in communion with, adored, and lifted up. Humanism would be the ultimate societal state of affairs and we could throw God away as a species...evolving beyond the "bronze-age beliefs, as Tangle also advocates.
I have no problem with you or any of the Evangelicals believing the nonsense you try to market but I certainly can only laugh when you claim any of it is evidence of anything more than your beliefs.
When you meet the Jesus whom you advocate throwing away some day, you hopefully will laugh and realize that God played a giant joke on your intellect. You more likely will weep when you realize that the judge will have perfect knowledge of everything you have done and have taught. I will put in a good word for you, however...as if my good words would carry any weight!
However should someone actually show up with evidence or even a reasoned argument then certainly I might be persuaded to reevaluate my position.
Tangle asks me why I stay around this place. The best answer that I can come up with is that I care about my arguments and about the people here at EvC who read them and challenge me on them. Iron sharpens iron.
jar writes:
No god ever imagined has ever been a true explanation of anything.
I am asssuming that you imply the same thing about Jesus Christ. We believe that He is God.
If "through Him all things were created" then that explains a lot about where things came from and is certainly a better explanation than Dr.Hawkings. I will agree wwith you that many apologists are at best lazy and at worst deceitful in what they sell. I like to think of myself as a Thinking Apologist, but I wont simply throw apologetics away.
jar writes:
That's the only world that exists; there is zero evidence that "spirit" exists and overwhelming evidence that all the religious spirit is simply fantasy.
Evidence is not the only tool that one can use to arrive at a reasonable belief.
ringo writes:
As I have told you before, you should assume that I have had the same experiences as you.
The difference is that you have interpreted them incorrectly. You use the believe-everything-the-apologists-tell-you method. I use the nothing-is-true-without-good-reason method.
And thus you never saw any good reason why God (through Jesus Christ) was real? OK got it. That explains a lot. Juvenissun take note. And by the way, I dont learn what I believe through apologists. I learn my beliefs through the Holy Spirit living in me.
ringo writes:
I see things all the time that I can't explain. I don't assume that nobody can explain them.
What you see is not "unexplained". See Tangle's explanation. The problem is that you reject the explanation.
The problem is that you assume that your explanation is the explanation. I make the same assumption, except the God I market is the absolute truth. That all gods described by humans being equally valid is a lie.
ringo writes:
...And your anything is no different from anybody else's anything.
You dont know that.
Juvenissun writes:
Evidences on faith is personal. I see evidences, and I try to share it with you. If you do not see, that is too bad. It is your loss, not mine. I see everything you see, but you do not see the most important thing I see.
The most important thing is Jesus Christ. Failure to see that makes the whole Bible just another book of ancient myths and literature.
jar writes:
The creation alleged in the beginning in the Genesis 1 myth.
If it did not start with God, it started with your own ego and that of every other socratic critically thinking master who is(are) blind.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1259 by jar, posted 08-25-2020 2:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1263 by jar, posted 08-25-2020 3:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1272 of 1444 (881664)
08-27-2020 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1269 by Juvenissun
08-26-2020 6:51 PM


God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Juvenissun writes:
If we do not have free will, then there is no need for Christianity. Or, more precisely, there is no Christianity.
Don't tell them that! It only supports their belief that it was all made up! You are throwing the Holy Baby out with the bathwater. In regards to free will, it is a basis for your and my belief, but i'm not sure what old jar has to say about it except that he defends the rationale that God if God exists could not reasonably foreknow everything without being a God that should be opposed and rejected.
jars basic argument is that humans invent our ideas, beliefs, and concepts about GOD. He basically affirms that Christians may well all agree that GOD exists but that Christianity splits apart philosophically as we humans attempt to describe what Christianity is. (And WHO or WHAT GOD is.)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1269 by Juvenissun, posted 08-26-2020 6:51 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1273 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:10 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1278 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 12:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1284 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 5:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1274 of 1444 (881667)
08-27-2020 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1273 by jar
08-27-2020 9:10 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
jar writes:
Phat, there is evidence of the universes beginning and of the beginning of life her on Earths and the evidence refutes the Just So story that is told in genesis 1.
Stop denying what can be seen and tested and verified only to embrace the fantasy.
I attempt to separate the fantasy from the actuality. Do you respect the Book of Job?
Remember how you always state that humans are charged to correct God? What do you think about the comment from Eliphaz the Temanite? (Job 4:1)
Also note what God says to Job. Can you imagine God saying anything similar to you?
Job 38:2-4 writes:
"Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Do you believe that GOD ever speaks to humanity through the Bible or do you believe that human interpretation of what God might say are all that we really have?
jar writes:
Do not continue misrepresenting what I do say.
What are you gonna do? Smite me? You misrepresent what I say all the time. If you cant hang on the porch, go back inside.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1273 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:10 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1275 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:47 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1276 of 1444 (881670)
08-27-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1275 by jar
08-27-2020 9:47 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
I palm no pea. There is no reason to do so.
jar writes:
None of us think that Logic or evidence ever created anything.
.
Note: Message 1263
jar writes:
Phat, there is evidence of the universes beginning and of the beginning of life here on Earths and the evidence refutes the Just So story that is told in genesis 1.
So what does your precious evidence say about the origin of the universe?( And the whole marketing claim that Genesis was a Just-So story is entirely your gimmick. ) And it certainly hurts your claim that you are a believer.
One could rightly ask just what it is that you believe in. As you explain this to us, keep in mind that your belief is essentially what *you* market....either explicitly or implicitly. In fact, I will help you to explain it to us through what you have said before. Feel free to elaborate. Message 1
Jars Belief Statement writes:
In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth.
GOD looked on what he had created and found it was Good.
Through a gift from GOD mankind was given the ability to know what is right from what is wrong.
GOD charges us to try to do Right, and to try not to do Wrong.
GOD is not cruel.
We are not condemned.
GOD chose ALL people.
We will be judged based on our own behavior.
So explain why God would choose all people? Where does Hitler fit in? Pol Pot? You seem harder on the goats whom you believe will be mainly Christians than you are on them!
jar writes:
I don't understand the difficulty some folk have with the idea of being judged. What else could there be? And who better to understand whether or not we tried to do what is right and to not do what is wrong than GOD? I doubt it will be a court of LAW but rather of Justice.
jar writes:
GOD, like the rest of my family was simply always there. She is not someone that I met one day, but like mother and father, sister and brother, aunt and uncle, grandfather and grandmother, part of the family, there, real, personal, intimate and pervasive. But just as with understanding your father and mother, my understanding of GOD changed with time.
Hopefully it is still changing.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1277 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 12:11 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1279 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 12:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1281 of 1444 (881692)
08-27-2020 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1277 by jar
08-27-2020 12:11 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
jar writes:
Read what was actually written Phat and then underline where I actually answered your questions in what you quoted.
Based on what I quoted, where would Hitler (a Christian by the way) and Pol Pot fit in?
OK, but I might add that not all who claim to be Christians are automatically thus Christians. Understanding that might help. In fact, I think you already know that...since you might argue that Christians are judged by what they do. Hitler obviously did not do what a Christian is supposed to do.
Now...to answer your question, allow me to reread and to underline.
Jars Belief Statement writes:
In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth.
GOD looked on what he had created and found it was Good.
Through a gift from GOD mankind was given the ability to know what is right from what is wrong.
GOD charges us to try to do Right, and to try not to do Wrong.
GOD is not cruel.
We are not condemned.
GOD chose ALL people.
We will be judged based on our own behavior.
According to the Sheep & Goats judgement, God may well have initially chosen all people, yet at the point of judgement He divides them up. You wont argue that both sheep and goats end up in Heaven, will you?(Of course none of us know)
Or are you telling me that GOD chose all people for Heaven? That's my basic question. If that is what you believe, i would find it incredulous.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 12:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1283 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 3:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1282 of 1444 (881693)
08-27-2020 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1279 by ringo
08-27-2020 12:57 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
ringo writes:
1. Why should anybody have to explain God's choices to you?
They shouldnt. If we agree, we both recognize God. If we disagree, you need God explained to you. You evidently have mistaken some spaghetti monster or Loki for the real deal.
2. Why should God's choices make sense to you?
The Book of Job clearly shows me that they often don't. If He in fact saved everyone, that too would blow my mind. But why on earth would I want Him to damn anyone? Unless perhaps they killed my Mother or my beloved pet. Even then would they really deserve Hell?
3. Why don't you ask Him yourself during your "communion"?
Trust me I often do.
4. Why would He only choose only the apologists and you?
Dont be silly. Stop it. I have mentioned before that He might even choose jar and yourself, despite your critically thinking minds that don't try and get to know Him.
5. Why don't you answer the questions people ask you?
Why dont you join the winning team instead of fighting us all of the time?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1279 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 12:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1286 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 9:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1289 of 1444 (881732)
08-28-2020 10:11 AM


Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
Again waking up earlyt and saying my morning prayers. The real life issues that I face (as opposed to the hypothetical arguments at EvC Forum) are often exposed in my morning communion. Through my time alone with God, I clearly feel His conviction, correction, or at times silence. When He is silent, I feel that He is allowing my own conscience to choose between selfishly holding on to a belief or idea or letting it go (by giving it to Him) .
I won't share my personal struggles here, but I will say that the solutions that seem to percolate to the surface are similar to the solutions in our hypothetical arguments that for me at least present some level of acceptance that I can live with. In general, some of them are:
SHARING: As to whether a blessing, favor, or solution belongs to ME alone or whether I am expected to share it with others. Honesty in this area exposes my fear at believing that the blessing has limits and whether I am holding on to my entitlement out of a real fear that letting go might mean that my blessing decreases.
ENTITLEMENT: As to what really belongs to me, what belongs to all of us, and what belongs to GOD and is His as regarding sole discretion over whom and what to distribute His largess.
The issues were addressed and I feel better, so now allow me to revisit some of your questions and rethink my answers.
ringo writes:
What makes you so arrogant as to think you can explain God's choices?
Good question. I believe that on one level, Christians who pray often and imagine a connection to God personally and not simply corporately by listening to Pastors, Evangelists and Apologists actually *do* have an idea or impression as to how God thinks, but this belief and awareness is constantly evolving and changing as we ourselves grow older and (hopefully) wiser. I certainly don't think nor believe that God is entirely unknowable. Jesus Christ has made it possible to know Him.
ringo writes:
Why should God's choices make sense to you?
Because God was made man through Jesus Christ. God became human in the 2nd member of the Trinity. If God chooses to relate to humanity through Jesus Christ, I...being also human...may have an inkling as to Gods choices in regards to humanity on this planet.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 12:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1292 of 1444 (881739)
08-28-2020 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by ringo
08-28-2020 12:14 PM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
The evidence doesn't support that.
Are you telling me that The Evidence supports a contrarian point of view? Do enlighten me. I am asserting that God has been adequately explained through people whom are more in touch with Him than are the rest of you yahoos. You will strongly disagree, siding with jar and calling out "the apologists" as a bunch of carny barking hucksters. If God exists and is actually forever unknowable, then you guys have won the argument. Christianity is unnecessary. We can all become socialists, humanists and a unified planet of people relying only on ourselves to forge a brave new secular path into the future. Right?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 12:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1294 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 8:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1293 of 1444 (881744)
08-28-2020 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by ringo
08-28-2020 12:14 PM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
ringo,addressing me writes:
But you reject almost everything that Jesus said.
That isnt true and you know it. I reject the idea that you have embraced of taking Jesus message and applying it to socialism while allowing for secular humanism to be the belief. What I reject is secular humanism, not Jesus Christ.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 12:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1295 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 8:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1296 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2020 2:20 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1298 of 1444 (881786)
08-30-2020 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1297 by Tangle
08-30-2020 4:09 AM


Omniscience Specifically
Christians believe that God is Spirit. They believe in One Holy Spirit and basically in One Body of Christ...the Church. It is taught that not ALL belong to this Body. Whether or not ALL ever will or not is for the future to decide.
Asimov writes:
Humanists believe that human beings produced the progressive advance of human society and also the ills that plague it. They believe that if the ills are to be alleviated, it is humanity that will have to do the job.
Christians are not by any means 100% unified in their beliefs regarding issues in the world, but by and large Christians also believe that humans produced the progressive advance of human society, though some, (remember Faith?) would argue that it was because of Christian values and specifically Christ in us that society advanced and that the ills that plague us were due to the lesser light..the occultic reflection that permeates the rest of the human animal. Christians are no better than the rest of the humans except that they have the light of the Spirit and not everybody automatically comes equipped with this.
They believe that if the ills are to be alleviated, it is necessary for societ6y to surrender to the Spirit of God and get rid of all the internal ills and mental; blocks that the lesser counterfeit light uses us for.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1297 by Tangle, posted 08-30-2020 4:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1299 by ringo, posted 08-30-2020 3:29 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1300 by Tangle, posted 08-30-2020 3:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1301 of 1444 (881804)
08-31-2020 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1299 by ringo
08-30-2020 3:29 PM


God does not simply know everyone.
ringo writes:
That teaching is a lie.
Calling evil good and good evil are we? If I told you that it was you who were taught the lies, you would demand that I do more than assert it. Jesus taught that the road to destruction was broad and that many follow it and that the road of truth was a narrow road and few would find it. He certainly never implied that ALL would find it nor that ALL would make it to Heaven.
Even John 3:16, the poster scripture of Christianity, while claiming correctly that God so loved the world...l(everyone)...it says that whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life. You will argue that this means that whosoever believes in the message (and does it) shall have eternal life. Believing in the message without belief in the resurrected Jesus Christ is an empty belief.
Luke 12:8-10 NIV writes:
"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9 But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.
The New Age lie of Universal Christ Consciousness. Back to your old buddy, the snake again...who you claim told the truth, even when the Lie was and is that we can all be just like Jesus without need of God (Elohim) and that since humans alone are the only agents observable through science of making a change and an impact that helps all of us, *we* are in essence gods. Not only that, but the snake in todays world whispers to us that God is but a myth and does not exist. Satans lie has begun to replace Gods truth.
See the story of the prodigal son.
Are you trying to tell me that this story implies that we all are sons? Again, a son is "whosoever" recognizes and respects the father. Do you honestly think that the Father would kill the fatted calf simply for some entitled bozo who walked into the shelter, grabbed a free meal, then left the shelter to mosey on down to the corner bar? Its a two way street. The Father will accept anyone of us home. But the son must acknowledge what his home is. Where even his Fathers servants have enough to eat. Where his Father is his father. Where the messenger is his father and not simply an old man who warmly accepts everyone into his house and lets them do as *they* please.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1299 by ringo, posted 08-30-2020 3:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1303 by ringo, posted 08-31-2020 12:34 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1304 of 1444 (881809)
08-31-2020 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1303 by ringo
08-31-2020 12:34 PM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
Just because im "making stuff up" does not mean it is a lie. And just because you interpret the scripture the way that you claim it reads does not mean that you are sharing the truth. 5 people reading the plain text may get 5 differing interpretive meanings from it. Stop andd think.
  • If the scripture really did come inspirationally from an omniscient God through human authors, who is to say that there are also those He has chosen to interpret the message and spread the Word?
    And if the scripture was merely the intended mythos and story from various human authors, what is the harm of interpreting it the way that we choose?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1303 by ringo, posted 08-31-2020 12:34 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1305 by ringo, posted 09-01-2020 12:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1306 by FLRW, posted 09-02-2020 3:45 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1307 of 1444 (881869)
    09-02-2020 3:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 1306 by FLRW
    09-02-2020 3:45 PM


    Re: God does not simply know everyone.
    So? In God We Trust is printed on American money. Simply printing Gods name somewhere does not mean that God is anymore than a symbol adopted by the people whom etched or printed it.
    I believe that God can be individually known but, as ringo often mentions, simply mouthing "Lord, Lord" is no guarantee that you know Him any better than an atheist in a foxhole who, upon getting shot, cries "Oh God!". I might rethink the idea that God does not know everyone, but the reason I initially stated it is due to the idea that God has said in the Bible to certain individuals, "Depart from me, I never knew you".
    Could it be that not all know God? I would assert that all know ABOUT God. Whether or not we believe in Him is another matter and whether or not we DO what He commands is still another matter.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1306 by FLRW, posted 09-02-2020 3:45 PM FLRW has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1308 by jar, posted 09-02-2020 4:03 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1309 of 1444 (881872)
    09-02-2020 6:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 1308 by jar
    09-02-2020 4:03 PM


    Re: God does not simply know everyone.
    jar writes:
    In you example those told to depart did know Jesus. It was Jesus that did not know them.
    Ok I see. This gets back to your belief that many of the goats are Christians. The only reason I question that is because I believe that everyone knows ABOUT God and that when a person gets saved, it is akin to meeting God. So in that brief moment of epiphany/awareness, wouldn't it be logical that He would become real to them (in essence meeting them?) I know that you never bought the product that only some of us get born again, but I think its logical.
    If the goats were Christians whom He never knew, why would they even have the importation to do anything? Ringo would claim that they likely would sit around braying Lord, Lord....but that implies that churches are full of posers trying simply to fit in and look spiritual to each other. I know that had I never experienced the salvation experience I would never even want to hang around a church.
    I suppose you could argue that all humans are aware of "the charge" due to the gift of knowing good and evil. I argue, however, that it takes that inner awareness of the reality of His existence to even give me the desire to share this stuff with others, (arguing endlessly with some )
    Edited by Phat, : punk tu a shun

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1308 by jar, posted 09-02-2020 4:03 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1310 by jar, posted 09-02-2020 6:52 PM Phat has replied
     Message 1322 by ringo, posted 09-03-2020 12:33 PM Phat has not replied

      
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