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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Stop saying you "would argue" when all you ever do is assert. And stop using the No True Christian PRATT.
If the answer was ever truly in your head and your heart and the answer was Jesus Christ, I would argue that you cant really outgrow Him as easily as you would a Santa Claus myth, spaghetti monster mythos, or any other fool thing that humans believe. Phat writes:
Again, that's not an argument. It's pretty clear you don't have one.
Unless you finally concluded that human wisdom made God rather than the other way around. In which case I argue that you are WRONG. Phat writes:
Yes they are. Science shows us that your version of spiritual belief is no different from the thousands of other versions of spiritual belief.
Science and its method are great for telling us facts about material reality but are no better than spiritual belief and experience at defining and/or disproving God. Phat writes:
Stop lying about me. You simply chose to no longer believe..."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
As I have told you before, you should assume that I have had the same experiences as you. All that I have are my experiences. Experiences that you likely never had. The difference is that you have interpreted them incorrectly. You use the believe-everything-the-apologists-tell-you method. I use the nothing-is-true-without-good-reason method.
Phat writes:
The difference is that I had no reason to stay while you had no reason to leave - i.e. the apologists hadn't told you to leave. I had many reasons I could have used to leave the faith. Whats the difference between you and I?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You don't know that.
... no human could imitate such a sound... Phat writes:
I see things all the time that I can't explain. I don't assume that nobody can explain them. Did you realize that at worst, you were definitely experiencing something unexplained? What you see is not "unexplained". See Tangle's explanation. The problem is that you reject the explanation."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's what I said. And your anything is no different from anybody else's anything. All that science shows us is that people can and do believe anything."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Stop using that silly metaphor. We've been through it. There is no baby in the bathwater. You are throwing the Holy Baby out with the bathwater."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
1. Why should anybody have to explain God's choices to you? So explain why God would choose all people? 2. Why should God's choices make sense to you? 3. Why don't you ask Him yourself during your "communion"? 4. Why would He only choose only the apologists and you? 5. Why don't you answer the questions people ask you?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I said, "God's CHOICES." What makes you so arrogant as to think you can explain God's choices?
If we disagree, you need God explained to you. Phat writes:
There's no evident difference.
You evidently have mistaken some spaghetti monster or Loki for the real deal. Phat writes:
Then why are you so clueless? You should be able to answer all of those unanswered posts with no problem.
ringo writes:
Trust me I often do. Why don't you ask Him yourself during your "communion"? Phat writes:
Maybe that's His point. Maybe He's using jar and me to try to drum some critical thinking into you.
ringo writes:
I have mentioned before that He might even choose jar and yourself, despite your critically thinking minds that don't try and get to know Him. Why would He only choose only the apologists and you? Phat writes:
How can your team be winning if you can't answer the questions? How can you score at all when you keep running away from the ball? ringo writes:
Why dont you join the winning team instead of fighting us all of the time? Why don't you answer the questions people ask you?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juvenissun writes:
And the fact that Judaism exists means what? And the fact that Islam exists means what? And the fact that Buddhism exists means what? And the fact that Mormonism exists means what? The FACT that Christianity exists, says that free will exists."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juvenissun writes:
My questions were directly related to what you posted. Even my phraseology directly mirrored yours.
What you need to improve is to ask question related to the issue of discussion. Juvenissun writes:
You gave a ten-dollar response that didn't answer a ten-cent question. You'll save yourself a lot of trouble if you just debate in good faith instead of whining about how other people debate.
In your case, question is cheap. Juvenissun writes:
You've told me yourself in other threads that I ask good questions. Try to get your story straight. Good question is hard to ask. You are not able to evaluate your own question yet."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The evidence doesn't support that.
I believe that on one level, Christians who pray often and imagine a connection to God personally and not simply corporately by listening to Pastors, Evangelists and Apologists actually *do* have an idea or impression as to how God thinks.... Phat writes:
But you reject almost everything that Jesus said. If God chooses to relate to humanity through Jesus Christ, I...being also human...may have an inkling as to Gods choices in regards to humanity on this planet."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I'm telling you that the evidence doesn't support your claim that your "communion" with God gives you special knowledge.
Are you telling me that The Evidence supports a contrarian point of view? Phat writes:
The evidence does not support that assertion. If it did, you would be providing the evidence instead of constantly scoffing at the idea of evidence.
I am asserting that God has been adequately explained through people whom are more in touch with Him than are the rest of you yahoos. Phat writes:
We can all become more like Jesus. Right. We can all become socialists, humanists and a unified planet of people relying only on ourselves to forge a brave new secular path into the future. Right?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It is true. You reject what He told the rich young ruler. You reject the prodigal son parable.
Phat writes:
That isnt true and you know it. But you reject almost everything that Jesus said. Phat writes:
I'm not applying anything. I'm directly quoting what He said.
I reject the idea that you have embraced of taking Jesus message and applying it to socialism... Phat writes:
Jesus was a humanist. What I reject is secular humanism, not Jesus Christ. You're just using "socialist" and "humanist" as buzzwords without the dlightest understanding of what they mean."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That teaching is a lie. See the story of the prodigal son. It is taught that not ALL belong to this Body. Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You are, yes.
Calling evil good and good evil are we? Phat writes:
I would remind you that I wasn't taught anything. I just read what the text says.
If I told you that it was you who were taught the lies... Phat writes:
I have tried to get you to do more than assert it but you never do. AND you refuse to discuss the lies that YOU have learned.
... you would demand that I do more than assert it. Phat writes:
And that contradicts your claim that your theology is mainstream.
Jesus taught that the road to destruction was broad and that many follow it and that the road of truth was a narrow road and few would find it. Phat writes:
He said that He came to save ALL of us. He tried to tell YOU that YOU aren't going to make it if all you do is mouth Lord! Lord!
He certainly never implied that ALL would find it nor that ALL would make it to Heaven. Phat writes:
You're contradicting Jesus.
Believing in the message without belief in the resurrected Jesus Christ is an empty belief. Phat writes:
The snake said no such thing. He said Adam and Eve would not die the same day that they ate the fruit. And they didn't. The snake told the truth.
Back to your old buddy, the snake again...who you claim told the truth, even when the Lie was and is that we can all be just like Jesus without need of God (Elohim)... Phat writes:
You're just making up your own story.
Not only that, but the snake in todays world whispers to us that God is but a myth and does not exist. Satans lie has begun to replace Gods truth. Phat writes:
The story of the prodigal son says the exact opposite: The father accepted the prodigal son unconditionally. The prodigal son was valued above the obedient son.
Again, a son is "whosoever" recognizes and respects the father. Phat writes:
The entitled bozo was the obedient son, like you. The father DID kill the fatted calf for the prodigal one. It says that at plain as day.
Do you honestly think that the Father would kill the fatted calf simply for some entitled bozo who walked into the shelter, grabbed a free meal, then left the shelter to mosey on down to the corner bar? Phat writes:
No. That's not what the story says. The Father will accept anyone of us home. But the son must acknowledge what his home is. The father saw his son far away and went to meet him and welcome him home. He had no way of knowing whether or not the son had repented. WE don't know whether the son repented. It isn't important to the story. It's getting very frustrating listening to you lie through your teeth about the Bible."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It is when you've been shown repeatedly that it isn't true.
Just because im "making stuff up" does not mean it is a lie. Phat writes:
It isn't a "claim". It DOES say what it says. Anybody who reads it can see what it says.
And just because you interpret the scripture the way that you claim it reads does not mean that you are sharing the truth. Phat writes:
No they won't. You might get one or two very minor deviations but you won't get the exact opposite like your claims. The snake said they wouldn't die and they didn't. Anybody who reads that will read it correctly - unless they have been indoctrinated in apologist lies.
5 people reading the plain text may get 5 differing interpretive meanings from it. Phat writes:
YOU stop and think. I have challenged you before to go back and answer your unanswered posts. If you actually THINK instead of just regurgitating what you have been spoon-fed, maybe you'll be able to discuss the topic honestly.
Stop andd think. Phat writes:
If that was true, there would be no point in us ordinary peons reading the Bible at all. But if the peons aren't smart enough to read the Bible, how can they tell whether the apologists' interpretations have any merit?
If the scripture really did come inspirationally from an omniscient God through human authors, who is to say that there are also those He has chosen to interpret the message and spread the Word? Phat writes:
It isn't harmful to me. It's harmful to you. It's the equivalent of taking your life savings in return for a bottle of snake oil. And if the scripture was merely the intended mythos and story from various human authors, what is the harm of interpreting it the way that we choose?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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