Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings

First the critics: I don't know about Chris, but the God I "market" is in no need of anyones respect. Also: Of course jar thinks that the God we market is one whom we have created. In fact, he is quite dismissive of the God whom Chris sees. jar markets a God whom was and is essentially created by human wisdom. He thus throws such a God away and invites the secular humanists to simply roll up their sleeeves and help do good at the local soup kitchen or prison. Additionally, it seems that many here at EvC are quite spiteful and in favor of total abolishment of the RCC. I've noticed that about liberals. They can be the most unforgiving people on the planet. Unless, of course...it is their own perverts whom they support. Dont let these folks anywhere near your kids either.

Have you not marketed GOD God and god?Have you not stated that GOD is unknowable while we are living?Have you not asserted that humans are all universally charged to do what we intrinsically know to do based on human wisdom?Have you not told me to throw God away?

So let me get this straight. Only those who claim to believe in Jesus are supposed to give it all up?And while we are talking on Chris's page here, I'll be honest what I feel concerning Christianity.The early believers appeared to be 100% all in. They knew the power of the Risen Christ as well as knowing Him personally before He was crucified. In those first 300 years AD, the five churches were established in five major cities...Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Damascus. Or was it Ephesus? Anyway, Christianity was already becoming watered down...as many sought positions, prestige, and an excuse to go forth and conquer land and lands.It has always been true with humans. Even knowing God is never enough. We have an innate propensity to rebel and seek to raise ourselves up instead of Jesus. The RCC split from the other 4 cities in 1066, and was the major economic and political wing of Catholicism. Many of the early Popes were accused of being corrupt and/or driven by their own ambitions, but just as Jesus told Peter, the gates of hell never prevailed against the church because there were genuine strong moral (and spiritual) people within that Body.

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As of May 31, 2019, information published by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) indicates that the conference has counted 7,002 clerics "not implausibly" and "credibly" accused of sexually abusing minors in the period 1950 through June 30, 2018, with three gaps in the USCCB data. Out of the 118,184 priests who have worked in those years, the 7,002 priests accused of abusing children are 5.9% of the total.

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Collated USCCB Data
On the Number of U.S. Priests Accused of Sexually Abusing Children and the Numbers of Persons Alleging Abuse
1950—2018This modern scandal is inexcusable and as bad as anything the early RCC faced, but it does not mean that the entire organisation should be disbanded. The church has a lot of educated and skilled members who are capable of helping many people. It seems that those of you who want them brought down have never acknowledged credibility to the competency of these members anyway.And as to the edict that you often push to sell all that one has, might I remind you that it was a rich young ruler who was advised to do such a thing. Nowhere is the implication that anyone of modest means should give up all they have and become poor simply to appease Jesus. Edited by Phat, : removed Constantinople and added Damascus to the list or the original five.

Note that I said you market a God...not a GOD. I suppose that whenever I paraphrase what you say, I then begin to lie. Keep in mind, however, that these issues are not solely the property of your framework. They are open to interpretation. I never knowing lie to anyone...but I may try and frame issues with favorably biased wording...so I suppose I'm guilty of that.You love to slap me with charges of lying at every opportunity, however.Your style of argumentation is sophomoric and appropriate for a take-no-prisoners debate at an adolescent boarding school.

I can agree yet disagree with the remedy. It is similar to charging the US Government with reparations against...oh...lets say the Native Americans. As a government, they may well be guilty, but do you really expect the United States to disband all of the private property and modern day leases and claims simply to satisfy an ancient grudge? It won't happen nor should it for it would wreck the status quo of modern America. Same with the RCC.I will say, however, that they should acknowledge their sins....yet it likely is impossible to pay for that acknowledgement without destroying the entire church...much as Reparations may well destroy the US Government and a host of private interests. You liberals really need to stop telling the rest of us what we must do and when. We are not beholden to that type of authority.

This argument was never really investigated by me until now, and it basically brings up some larger arguments on the origins, validities, and overarching purpose of Christianity and whether the only real "Clubs" are the Catholic ones.My search started at Catholic Answers. Was Peter In Rome?The tract basically spells out the ideas touted by Protestants and Catholic scholars alike as they discuss the establishment of the Papacy. Some points brought up:

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Protestants say Christ never appointed Peter as the earthly head for the simple reason that the Church has no earthly head and was never meant to have one. Christ is the Church’s one foundation, in any possible sense of that term. The papacy, they say, arose out of fifth- or sixth-century politics, both secular and ecclesiastical. It has not been established by Christ, even though supposed successors to Peter (and their defenders) claim it was.

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After all, his being in Rome would not itself prove the existence of the papacy. In fact, it would be a false inference to say he must have been the first pope since he was in Rome and later popes ruled from Rome. With that logic, Paul would have been the first pope, too, since he was an apostle and went to Rome.

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Admittedly, the Bible nowhere explicitly says Peter was in Rome; but, on the other hand, it doesn’t say he wasn’t. In fact, very little is said about where he, or any of the apostles other than Paul, went in the years after the Ascension. For the most part, we have to rely on books other than the New Testament for information about what happened to the apostles in later years.

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The authorities knew that Peter was a leader of the Church, and the Church, under Roman law, was considered organized atheism. Peter would do himself, not to mention those with him, no service by advertising his presence in the capital. Why encourage a manhunt?

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William A. Jurgens, in his three-volume The Faith of the Early Fathers, a masterly compendium that cites at length everything from the Didache to John Damascene, includes thirty references to this question, divided, in the index, about evenly between the statements that Peter came to Rome and died there and that Peter established his See at Rome and made the bishop of Rome his successor in the primacy. A few examples must suffice, but they and other early references demonstrate that there can be no question that the universaland very earlyposition was that Peter certainly did end up in the capital of the empire.

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Tertullian, in The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200), noted of Rome, How happy is that church . . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John’s [referring to John the Baptist, both he and Paul being beheaded]. Protestants admit Paul died in Rome, so the implication from Tertullian is that Peter also must have been there.

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In his Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110), Ignatius of Antioch remarked that he could not command the Roman Christians the way Peter and Paul once did, such a comment making sense only if Peter had been a leader, if not the leader, of the church in Rome.

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Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. A few lines later he notes that Linus was named as Peter’s successor, that is, the second pope, and that next in line were Anacletus (also known as Cletus), and then Clement of Rome.

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I knew about the Five Cities where early Catholic Christianity began. I fully agree wwith jar that the word "Catholic" refers to the Body of Believers on earth and not the church in Rome. As a Protestant, I embrace the idea of one universal church yet would only add that I believe that not everyone who claimed membership was in fact a member. A member, I would assert, was one who had the Holy Spirit (as *all* in the upper room in Acts certainly had.)Later wolves in sheeps(or shepherds) clothing attempted to use the papacy and position within early organized religion to further their own carnal political and material lusts on planet earth. In taking a few courses in college on European History, I also saw the great seesaw struggle between Popes vs Kings and early Monarchs within Europe. The Protestant Reformation was initially a breath of fresh air for true be;lievers, (I know I sound like Faith! ) but it too later succumbed to the all-too-human tendency to shirk ones spirtual awareness in pursuit of earthly lusts. Down through the ages, the Church Universal, as I will call us in order to differentiate Catholicism from the pagan offshoots of the Ecclesiastic Body has survived to this day just as Jesus told Peter it would.

Indeed I do. Your colorful cursing shows me all I need to know about your emotional opinion on the matter! Because what you believe and what I believe are no indication of reality. If GOD is more than a human concept and if Jesus is His Son, (and not Elmer Gantry) then if you expect to charge me with listening to Jesus, you darn well better do the same thing and sell that house of yours and go live in the shelter with the spare change artists. Perhaps universal socialism will take care of all of us, including the widow minus two mites. By "early church" I meant the believers in Acts, the ones who gave all they had and laid it at the Apostles feet. Many of them had seen Jesus while He was alive in the flesh and most all of them certainly knew Peter. The scene could have been Jerusalem just as easily as it could have been Rome. And how am I watering it down? By daring to keep my house for my shelter in life? Or by questioning Leftist politics? How convenient it must be to hold the Christianss accountable to the message that they believe in while exempting yourself from that same message. If I give it all up *YOU* give it all up, Pal. The difference is, the socialists will make it a mandatory law. Jesus did not have the rich young ruler arrested for refusing to listen to Him. jar corrected both of us. Note my post above. And note one thing about Peter mentioned in Catholic Answers:

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Clement of Alexandria wrote at the turn of the third century. A fragment of his work Sketches is preserved in Eusebius of Caesarea’s Ecclesiastical History, the first history of the Church. Clement wrote, When Peter preached the word publicly at Rome, and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been for a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed.

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Lactantius, in a treatise called The Death of the Persecutors, written around 318, noted that When Nero was already reigning [Nero reigned from 54—68], Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked by that power of God which had been given to him, he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God.

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Peter was not simply some Bozo with a bullhorn trying to get money from the crowd. He had the Spirit.

It makes no sense for the victim to be awarded the church building when the church building belongs to everyone in the church. Just as it would make no sense to award the social security trust funds to victims of early American oppression.

Im going to send you a private message. Look for it in this forum.

One difference between you and I is that I have a definite need for a real relationship that transcends time and is essentially forever. Perhaps that need makes it easier for me to believe.

That reminds me of Tangles argument to PRC about how non-catholics are surely going to hell. First, the evidence. I looked it up also, Tangle.
Catholics
by Bradley Eli, M.Div., Ma.Th.Also CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITIONNow the question. Are all Non-Catholics going to hell?

I'm attempting to refocus several streams of conscious arguments over here in our Free For All thread with Chris. (You guys dont have to call him "whats his Catholic Name" anymore)One question we have on the table is the issue of whether Non-Catholics will be saved.Another question along these same lines is whether everyone will make it or whether there are certain Spiritual Preconditions which a human must consciously and willfully do in order to escape the fate of animals and simply die and become fertilizer (or get sent to some place for rebellious souls)jar and ringo bring up the Parable Of The Rich Young Ruler and the Parable Of The Prodigal Son.And of course jar believes that Christianity is about what You Do versus what You Could Have Done---assuming there is a Judgement.Chris seemingly believes in a God of Mercy and that the Gates of Hell will never bring down the RCC.AZPaul3 says that Christian Idealism clashes with the Reality of Human Behavior.And Tangle attempts to hold Catholicism and Protestantism to the standards of the characters in the book and the written rules of the church.Lets continue.

For starters, (and while we are being hypothetical) what if we all don't want to be there? Assuming that God forgave everyone on the planet for their sins (be they many or few,major or minor) we thus would know of Gods boundless Agape Love. But what of our ongoing nature? Does He fix that too or will we be our same imperfect selves inhabiting a perfect place?Will the Biden supporters remember why they hated Trump? Will the Trump supporters remember why they hated Biden?Will the freethinkers put up with the authority? Or will Heaven be a place of autonomy?Edited by Phat, : added points

Not true. He has it. Now, He may well save all of us should He so desire. Personally I believe that if such a reality as Hell ever existed or now exists, it was not intended to be a place for people. It was the result of the free choice of the angels who decided to break rank with God and the only reason humans would end up there is by following a different Vibe...or spirit and in so doing rejecting the Holy Spirit of the Risen Christ. Your tongue-in-cheek humor is intended to show us the silliness of organized religion and the idea of God, but it assumes that humans can remain the way that they are and have no worries. I believe that we need to change (or rather to allow the Holy Spirit to transform us) and that this all is designed to be a willful growth process. Provide a sanctuary, teaching center and place of encouragement and physical help through food banks and rent vouchers. You will claim that this is the governments role. Not on my watch. I trust the governments ability to handle money even less than I do the church. I have always known that I could do little in and of myself. Granted I could be a good secular humanist and provide mental and physical comfort to needy people. But I seek more. I seek a connection with the galactic war between good and evil. Kinda like Star Wars. I knew that it never was. Thankfully Jesus did it. I know that I never could do it and likely would resist even trying. But this whole idea sprang from you guys and your interpretation of what Jesus wants from us(Christians) and conveniently not intended for you. For you could never do it either. I could just as well ask you what tenets,if any, are true? Yes, you *do* bring up some challenging questions and issues. Thankfully for me, I dont believe that Christianity is graded entirely on works alone. I believe in Divine Grace. And that concept annoys a lot of people. If I did, the whole place might light up.

Had to look the old comedian up.
How the comedian felt about God

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He was born May 12, 1937, in New York City into an Irish Catholic family, but he rejected the faith. His parents split up when he was an infant because his father was reportedly an alcoholic. (Some famous quotes from his routine)

We created god in our own image and likeness!
Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll to to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money! [George Carlin, from album "You Are All Diseased" (it can also be found in the book "Napalm and Silly Putty".]
Religion is sort of like a lift in your shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don't ask me to wear your shoes.

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I have as much authority as the pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.[George Carlin, Brain Droppings]

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Jesus was a cross dresser [George Carlin, Brain Droppings]

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I finally accepted Jesus. not as my personal savior, but as a man I intend to borrow money from. [George Carlin, Brain Droppings]

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I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood. [George Carlin, from the album "A Place For My Stuff"]

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A man came up to me on the street and said I used to be messed up out of my mind on drugs but now I'm messed up out of my mind on Jeeesus Chriiist.
The only good thing ever to come out of religion was the music. [George Carlin, Brain Droppings]

I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God - I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is F--KED UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago. [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]

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Makes you wonder what turned him off to Catholicism.