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Author | Topic: The Great Depression No One Talks About | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I read the Parable again. Luke 15:11-32.
The Parable is called by several names. The Parable Of The Two BrothersThe Parable of The Lost Son. The Parable Of The Loving Father The Parable Of The Forgiving Father ringo seems to think that this Parable disproves any exclusivity within Christianity or at least in the eyes of Jesus.
jar writes: You have argued the same argument in regards to Saul vs Paul. Nothing in what you underlined points to or indicates or suggests any change in the Prodigal Son but only a possible suggestion of some change in status. I see change in the attitude of the Prodigal Son. It starts out: Luke 15:11-12 writes: He was seeking autonomy from his Father. He left home in search of finding satiety and excitement. "There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.'So he loses what his Father gave him. I can somewhat relate. I've lost most of what my late Father gave me. All that I have left is the very house that I live in--my only shelter in this world from being homeless on a street corner. And ringo has the sheer audacity to tell me what I as a Christian need to do. This from an old fool who doesn't even believe in God! (sorry I'm ranting, but I'm still mad at his hubris!) Anyway, back to the Parable.
Luke 15:14-16 writes: This is what makes me mad when debating Jesus with ringo. ringo seems to think that Christians are called to give their very lives up for others as did Jesus but if this is true, (which it might be) then not more than a handful of Christians have done so or are even capable of doing so. This Prodigal used up what his Dad gave him and then hired himself out and yet nobody gave him anything!!! That would drive me crazy! One of my problems is that I think I am owed something. If God wont do it, perhaps Uncle Sam can. If Uncle Sam is broke, then I'm in trouble! But I am standing in Faith that God is more than an abstract concept but is my Father. And my Father would never let me down.
4 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything. Luke 15:17-20 writes: See here is where I note a change in the attitude of the Prodigal Son. Where before he demanded his share of what the Father has/had, now he is willing to work for his Father in exchange for being taken care of. You may still argue that only his status had changed and not his inner nature, but I would argue that desperate times call for desperate measures. Who else is going to take care of him? He obviously found out that he couldnt take care of himself! "When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.'"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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I hope im not actually that selfish! I do want to feel loved, however. Perhaps I wouldn't be disappointed in a God who included everybody and not just those who claimed sonship or special or exclusive status. But as I examine my heart while typing this reply I will admit that I feel resentment over people who get something for nothing or who take without giving. Introspection can be a bitch.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: But your logic...*ahem* excuse me...Jesus logic is to sell all that I have. How is that taking care of me? How is being homeless taking care of me? You really do push this stuff to its theoretical limits, but you are not being practical. Im 60 years old. I cant sell my house. End of story. I'm telling you what JESUS told you to do. And there's no "audacity" involved. It's a direct quote. AND it isn't a one-off either. It's a theme repeated many times in the Bible.It's about trusting God to take care of you. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: See its all amusing to those of you who imagine yourselves enlightened enough to shed religion. You expect any religious guy worth listening to to have shed all of their worldly goods and waunder around like a vagabond hippie, helping homeless and sick people and taking no concern for themselves. Allah will provide. And I can hear him now...ringo will say "thats what Jesus did". Jesus already died for all of us... He doesn't expect us to piously imitate His poverty. He does expect us to remove any obstacles in our lives that prevent us from trusting Him (or GOD) fully, so I can see your arguments...I simply do not agree with the necessary severity of them. And isnt it funny how it is the atheists who attempt to hold the Christian leaders to a vow of poverty when they themselves dont even believe that God exists. Y'all just mad that some of the carny hucksters exploited people for money so you push the entirely opposite extreme of every Christian leader leading by example and giving up all their worldly stuff to the poor. But the poor will always be with us, and becoming poor yourself does not solve the problem."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Dr.Jones writes: You got me there. I see it as an unnecessary sacrifice. Also an unwise one. The fact that it might impress a few of you is not enough motivation to do it.
The point is god will take care of you, don't you have faith in your lord?-AZPaul3 writes:
But I'm not asking *you* to give up anything more than your rational mind and to place trust in an invisible and un-evidenced God. You are asking me to give up my shelter and all of my possessions. And yes that's a tall order for anyone. Show us what such a leap of faith would look like. Sell your properties and possessions and take Thugpreacha to the other side of the tracks to witness the word to the struggling poor. If you are a follower of Jesus then you have no reason not to. Leap with the faith that your god will provide for your needs. That's a tall order for anyone. Still want to be a christian? Realize if you can't do it then you cannot ask anyone else to be christian either. Edited by Phat, : spelling"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Thinking further about this challenge from my atheist brothers, I ran to the scriptures, as any good little apologist would do. After all, most of them would squirm as much as I am at this moment!
Satan Tempts Jesus Luke 4:1-13 writes: I will be honest with you---your challenge bothers me because I realize that I cant do it. Granted I could see it as being a temptation from Satan, (especially coming from you ) but in all honesty, Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert and the way I read that it was the Holy Spirit and not the adversary that led Him into that time of denial and fasting. Isnt it just like God to use an atheist to convict me! Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 being tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry. 3 And the devil said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread." 4 But Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.'" 5 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours." 8 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'" 9 Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here. 10 For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,To keep you,' 11 and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up,Lest you dash your foot against a stone.'" 12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'" 13 Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time.NKJV So I guess I cant ever encourage any of you to take Leaps of Faith since I cant do it either. Not that I feel led by the Spirit to give up all that I have. But you did touch a nerve. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: You don't actually believe Christ's message Phat, do you? You only choose to believe those bits that are good for you. I can sum all of this concern up in one answer. I know Christ beyond simply as a character in a book. I don't have to look up what He says in the book to verify any command or will of His. This is what you people cant see..or if you do see it you will only claim that it is all a fantasy of ours. Some of us actually know the living Christ. At best, the book will confirm what He wants us to do but we never limit our interpretation of His Daily Will for us to the character and characters in the Book. And i know you will now say that this is why Christianity is such a danger to the world. It wont go away quietly. And one more thing. We believe in confirmation through the living Body of Christ. Not through a bunch of atheistic Critical Thinkers. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'm just ranting, Aussie. If you think I'm bad you should see some of the people I know. What I'm essentially saying, however is that extremists on the Left are every bit as toxic as extremists on the Far Right. Just different manifestations of toxicity.
My chore this morning is to get these 4 or 5 topics where I am ranting with y'all to somewhat get back to the listed topics at hand. This one is specifically about a Coming Great Depression...which I've noted is still discussed, seemingly financially imminent yet not manifesting in any notably apocalyptic ways. Do you see the possibility of such a global event? Or is someone holding it back until AFTER the elections?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Bring this argument over here. Message 185
But if you have any comments on a possible Great Depression, air them here. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lets redirect this line of thought over to our other thread. Message 185
But if you have any comments on whether or not the world is heading into a bigger storm than we think we now have, comment here."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: And you know this because...? Phat does not trust God. The Apologists do not trust God. They both just lie about trusting God. I could whine like you do about being misrepresented but I'm curious what drew you to your conclusions? And why you lump all of the apologists together."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You said that you do not trust people who do not trust God. I dont trust people who claim that God either does not exist or is an abstract unprovable concept Who is not personal. The reason is that I believe that there is a spiritual realm and that everyone intrinsically (intuitively?) knows about God as a concept....though many dont give the concept any more thought than I would Loki. When I accepted Jesus Christ into my heart in 1993, I felt a distinct change which has spurred me on to this very day to defend it...which I suppose makes me an apologist of sorts.
Did you trust God to pay your debts? When I got in over my head in debt, I knew that it was my fault, even though I was an addict of sorts. I knew that my life at that point was unmanageable. When I had to go to court, you know I was praying for Gods influence over my own stability and clearheadedness and honesty, as well as for any judge that might be there. I did not pray that the creditors would not show up, though in retrospect I am glad that they chose not to pursue me. I was in a hot mess, and have learned from that experience and was given the strength to overcome that addiction.
Do you trust God to take care of you if you lose your job or are homeless? Yes and No. I am aware that all of the evidence shows that only people help other people. There is no invisible hand appearing from the skies. That being said, there is an invisible Spirit that knows all things and cares for all people. On my way to work each day, I thank Him for my job, and if I see these homeless folks asking for change on the corners, I often give them some. I know that they are depending on me to help them. Whether they pray or not I have no clue, but I do pray for them also.
Do you trust God to heal your ills? I trust God to give me wisdom. What you are asking of me is to say I either trust God or science, but it is not an either/or option. I believe that the very fact that humans are alive is evidence of the Holy Spirit on this planet. God has an influence within people of science.(yes, He cares for atheists too!) Though I believe He desires that we all try and know Him
Do you give up your rational mind and to place trust in an invisible and UN-evidenced God.
I do not give up my rational mind but I do pray every day and I do believe that God responds not simply through favoring me but through challenging me to think, as He did (through EvC atheists none the less!) as to why I would never give up all that I had. It is a question still heavy on my mind and heart, though I in no way feel guilty over not doing it. Very few people would. Though ringo claims examples in the Bible of people who did, he himself would never do so and yet expects any honest follower to do what the book says their Lord tells them to do. I'm still not through arguing that one!
No Phat, you don't. Yet you say that I lie to myself. (or to others) I am well aware that I dont give everything away. I am well aware that I don't trust God alone, 100% to provide for my needs and take care of me.
You don't give everything away, you count on getting paid by your employer and getting job protection from your union and medical care from doctors and hospitals and protection by the police and fire departments. And you'd be stupid not to count on those things that are not invisible and unevidenced. Are any of the things I point out misrepresentations of what you do and have done? Are those things also not true of EVERY Apologist? What makes a so-called apologist any different from you? Are you charging them with hiding whats in the fine print? ALL of them? Seriously, jar. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I pray every day to get to know God better. I most definitely don't believe that everything He said to others in the book was intended for me. What He told the Rich Young Ruler was not what He expected from Zacheus the Tax Collector.
Though He commended the widow with two mites, he only mentioned her great faith. He did not directly condemn everyone else for giving less--i'm sure He realized that most are weaker than that desperate widow. Are you willing to give up your rational mind No. I only say this to those who dont consider that God may be real.
...and to place trust in an invisible and un-evidenced God? I try and trust Him more each day. I realize that I fall short. I don't expect Him to magically take care of me without changing my perspective. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lets take this over here. Re: Parables 101 in differing contexts
I want our conversation in one thread. We are spread all around! "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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