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Author
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Topic: Parables 101
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 214 of 229 (882122)
09-11-2020 1:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 213 by ringo
09-11-2020 12:31 PM
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Re: Parables 101 in differing contexts
Also notice that the poor widow put in "more than all." She put in all of her worldly goods AND she put in her trust. And she was commended for it. But He did not then say "go and do likewise". Notice his exchange with Zacchaeus.
Luke 19:1-10 writes: Then Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. 2 Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. 3 And he sought to see who Jesus was, but could not because of the crowd, for he was of short stature. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see Him, for He was going to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, He looked up and saw him, and said to him, "Zacchaeus, make haste and come down, for today I must stay at your house." 6 So he made haste and came down, and received Him joyfully. 7 But when they saw it, they all complained, saying,"He has gone to be a guest with a man who is a sinner." 8 Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold." 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." NKJV
Zacchaeus negotiated the terms and Jesus approved. Only 1/2 was mentioned. Yet Jesus declared that salvation had come to that house. Clearly what was said to One rich young ruler did not apply to all rich people. And note Zacchaeus confidence that he had never knowingly defrauded anyone.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 213 by ringo, posted 09-11-2020 12:31 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 215 by ringo, posted 09-11-2020 8:43 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 216 of 229 (882126)
09-12-2020 1:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 215 by ringo
09-11-2020 8:43 PM
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Re: Parables 101 in differing contexts
ringo writes: In that case, Jesus was contradicting Himself. He didn't tell the rich young ruler to sell half of what he had. He didn't commend the widow for giving one mite. He didn't kill Ananias and Sapphira for holding back half. Sounds as if you too are playing apologist and rationalizing what Jesus must have meant. At the very least you are dancing. Speaking of apologists, here is what one respectable guy said: Does Jesus Expect His Followers to Give Up All of Their Possessions? quote:
It’s true that Jesus told the rich young ruler to give up his wealth and follow Him ( Mark 10:21 ). On another occasion, Jesus said, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God 1 ( Mark 10:25 ). On other occasions, Jesus didn’t rebuke friends who owned property or command them to sell their homes and businesses. In fact, He often ate with people and stayed at their homes. Friends like Mary and Martha or Zacchaeus the publican were clearly not among the poor. He was even buried in the newly excavated tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, a wealthy member of the Sanhedrin. So why, then, did Jesus set up what seems to be such a stringent requirement for this particular young man? ( Matthew 19:16-22; Mark 10:17-31; Luke 18:18-30 ). Jesus knew the young man’s heart. He knew that he was looking for a way to earn his salvation on his own terms. He may have thought that the Master would give him a specific task or good deed to perform that would win eternal life, one that wouldn’t require him to humble himself and unconditionally set his life under the authority of Christ. Instead, Jesus set up a requirement that clearly illustrated the basic issue: the rich young man’s desire to retain control of his life. Jesus wasn’t implying that salvation can actually be earned by good deeds. Even if the rich young ruler would have given away his riches and followed Christ, he wouldn’t have earned his salvation. However, if he had done so, he would have surrendered his desire for autonomy and acknowledged God’s authority to do what He wanted with his life. Jesus felt compassion for this young man. But because He knew that the ruler was seeking to manipulate God, He had no choice but to send him away with a clear awareness of his failure. The Bible makes it clear that possession of wealth involves responsibility, including a responsibility to be compassionate to the poor. But the Bible doesn’t say that all Christians should sell everything they have and give the proceeds to the poor.
The only reason you feel that it does is because it is what you believe anyway...imagining what a great world it could be if everyone did so.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 215 by ringo, posted 09-11-2020 8:43 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 219 of 229 (882140)
09-13-2020 10:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 217 by AZPaul3
09-12-2020 2:46 PM
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Re: Parables 101 in differing contexts
Dan,RBC Apologist writes: Jesus knew the young man’s heart. He knew that he was looking for a way to earn his salvation on his own terms. AZPaul3 writes: So Jesus knew something the rest of the audience did not. Kinda like one of those old Perry Mason dramas. If so then why wasn't this explained in the narrative? Instead of punishing the young man for being duplicitous the narrative punishes him for being rich and not giving it all. Wrong message sent. Or wrong interpretation. For us wannabe apologists out there, it is kinda assumed that Jesus knows things that the rest of the audience is basically unenlightened about. And for the record, we don't believe that the Bible has many "god characters" in it. The vast majority of us are not liars, though we tend to protect our "liars" and forgive them much quicker than the political Left does when a liar is exposed. Human nature is what it is. Jesus was not just God incarnate--He was human. And another error that ringo makes is when he assumes that Jesus has the same command for everybody. That can clearly be proven false through scripture. And why not? Do you expect everyone you talk to to need the same counsel?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 217 by AZPaul3, posted 09-12-2020 2:46 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 220 of 229 (882141)
09-13-2020 10:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 218 by ringo
09-12-2020 9:22 PM
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Re: Parables 101 in differing contexts
ringo writes: I have told you many times that I don't believe in any "great world". Nor do I. But I DO believe in a Great God.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 218 by ringo, posted 09-12-2020 9:22 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 224 by ringo, posted 09-13-2020 3:11 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 223 of 229 (882148)
09-13-2020 2:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 222 by AZPaul3
09-13-2020 12:18 PM
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Re: Parables 101 in differing contexts
I've always argued that Ananias and Saphira essentially killed themselves through being in a group of strong and truthful believers where lying was a grievous sin against the Holy Spirit. It was not the money they kept back that was the issue. It was lying about it. It would be as if I told everyone at EvC that I had given everything up to the Lord and yet still kept my house. I believe that God wouldn't be mad that I had kept my house. He would be mad that I misrepresented my obedience and sacrifice by telling everyone I gave up everything and lying about it. And my wife, if I had one, would be guilty for defending my lie.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 222 by AZPaul3, posted 09-13-2020 12:18 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 225 by ringo, posted 09-13-2020 3:17 PM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 226 by AZPaul3, posted 09-13-2020 6:05 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 227 of 229 (882189)
09-15-2020 6:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 224 by ringo
09-13-2020 3:11 PM
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Re: Parables 101 in differing contexts
The apologist was being a bit vague, but was not lying. It is not simply the action of giving all that you have away to the poor that determines your salvation. It is following Jesus. (and not just His message either)
Note how the rich young ruler never offered to follow Jesus to begin with. What do you think would have happened had Jesus simply said to him, "There is one thing you need to do. Follow me." That may well be all that is needed for some to find eternal life. But not this rich one. Notice also that Jesus didn't say "how hard it is for anyone who isn't fully broke to find eternal life." Did Jesus command Mary & Martha to sell everything they had? How about the Roman Centurion? How about Zaccheus?Clearly not. Clearly you don't understand the contexts because you don't understand Jesus. All that you took was the message. You just like the idea of rich people giving everything away to the poor people.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 224 by ringo, posted 09-13-2020 3:11 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 228 by AZPaul3, posted 09-15-2020 12:14 PM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 229 by ringo, posted 09-15-2020 12:43 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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