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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2259 of 3207 (862544)
09-06-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 2256 by ringo
09-06-2019 11:36 AM


Re: When specifics are required
experiment equivalent to Michelson-Morley
Right there is a semantic rabbit hole I will not go down.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2256 by ringo, posted 09-06-2019 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2260 by ringo, posted 09-06-2019 12:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2277 of 3207 (862571)
09-06-2019 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2260 by ringo
09-06-2019 12:01 PM


Re: When specifics are required
It's just demanding the same scientific evidence for your claim as for anything else.
Then the millions and millions of null results over many millennia are that evidence.
Null results count as scientific evidence. Just ask Albert Michelson.
your claim of "knowing" something about God is no different from Faith's.
You telling me you don't discern an absolute "know" from a tentative "know"?
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2260 by ringo, posted 09-06-2019 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2279 by ringo, posted 09-07-2019 12:45 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 2682 of 3207 (882208)
09-15-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2680 by Trump won
09-15-2020 9:39 AM


god did not create me
god does not exist
That is the unstated creed that I speak with every breath. Thousands of times a day, just by breathing, I reaffirm this creed of reality.
Further, your god will not challenge me will not oppose me.
He knows he is made from men’s minds and can be vanquished with a mere thought.
Your non-existent god cowers in my presence. I am man. I rule over your god and his heaven.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2680 by Trump won, posted 09-15-2020 9:39 AM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2683 by Trump won, posted 09-15-2020 1:24 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 2684 of 3207 (882219)
09-15-2020 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2683 by Trump won
09-15-2020 1:24 PM


Abiogenesis is on the path of life. We are complex chemistry in continuous motion and your denials will not alter that fact.
a chair did not just appear there. the woodworker made it.
Which means nothing in the reality of the universe. Nature, not god, made the woodworker as well as the tree from which he made the chair.
And the knowledge to make the chair from the tree is the product of human intellect and creativity, two additional qualities your non-existent god lacks.
You are an ape, an evolved monkey, once a rat born of a fish born of a worm.
All the evidence of history, all the evidence of planet Earth, attest to this fact. And all your catholic angst and want of suffering and all your appeals to majik and stupidity cannot alter the facts the universe presents us.
but there is a whisper in the wind that says i love you
George Carlin again?
there is no other AZPaul3
Oh, gawd, I sure as hell hope you're right. I couldn't take another one of me. Hell, I can barley tolerate the one that's here except he does have a most excellent beard.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2683 by Trump won, posted 09-15-2020 1:24 PM Trump won has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2694 of 3207 (885040)
03-19-2021 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2693 by Raphael
03-19-2021 8:15 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Except with your divine being we also get the lake of fire. With Stile's Almost-God we get nice with more nice.
I like Stile's Spinoza-inspired god a whole hell of a lot better than yours.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2693 by Raphael, posted 03-19-2021 8:15 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2695 by Raphael, posted 03-19-2021 9:39 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2696 of 3207 (885042)
03-19-2021 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2695 by Raphael
03-19-2021 9:39 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Hey, Ralph.
A God who has a priority of ending evil in the universe, and does so with fire would be much more worth believing in, imo.
No, no, not any of the abrahamic gods. Those guys really love their fire. The problem I have is your good god who has a priority of ending evil is the one who created, spread and exacerbated evil to begin with. Unfortunately, image rehabilitation at this late date doesn't work.
And the audacity of the bastards. First create evil, suffering, anguish and death, let them fester for millennia then claim to be The Warrior Against Evil. The cheek.
But I tilt at windmills. Your gods aren't real, Ralph. I can't really complain about a ghost that is only in someone else's head.
Wait,
Yes I can. That's why I'm here. This is my avocation.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2695 by Raphael, posted 03-19-2021 9:39 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2697 by Raphael, posted 03-20-2021 7:17 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2698 of 3207 (885049)
03-20-2021 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2697 by Raphael
03-20-2021 7:17 AM


You The Man
In response, all love man, but your entire approach to this conversation is pretty intellectually arrogant.
It is indeed. And with justification. You all are selling a product. You want me to buy into it. What you see as arrogance I see as due diligence in questioning the product as well as the seller.
You’re doing a lot of assuming about my positions on things.
Yes, I am. I assume you are religious meaning you believe in something that even you cannot show is really there. I assume this something is seen, by you, as creator of the universe, all that is, seen and unseen, as the mantra goes in this forum. I assume you agree and hold to the biblical Genesis account and that your goal here is to minister to us heathens in order to save our souls from the vengeance of your imagined gods. I assume your creed includes heaven and hell as reward/punishment for levels of devotion shown. I assume you believe Da Book.
You’re a religionist, the intellectual enemy of reality and reason steeped in the majik and emotion of a realm that doesn’t even exist in this universe.
Am I close?
The issue is, there are a multiplicity of hermeneutics used to interpret scripture and I don’t really fit within the walls you’ve built for me.
There is only one box for you to fit in, Ralph. Believer. Religionist. The specifics of your belief system are not important. The box I put you in doesn’t care if you cross yourself from left-to-right or right-to-left or not at all. The reality or not of what you insist we should believe is the only issue here.
Yah, I’m a hard reductionist, so, prove yourself. Show us your evidence.
Caution, I’m also a scientist (retired). I know what constitutes evidence and what doesn’t so, please, present hard physical evidence not some wayward syllogisms with faulty logic.
Real scholars take the time to understand the actual arguments of their contemporaries, so they can have an informed dialogue.
If there is something pertinent I am missing in my assumptions about your position then please correct me.
I may seem arrogant but I’m also limiting the discussion to the bare essence. Where have I erred in my assessment that you believe in some kind of god and seek to convince others of its reality?
What other positions need to be put forward to discuss that one questionable in your creed – belief? It is the most basic question of this discussion.
This thing really is, for me, that simple. Show us your god. That’s all it takes.
I mean, I hear and value your belief that my “gods” aren’t real. But it’s certainly not something any of us can demonstrably prove, right?
Then why do you pray to this thing?
I suspect why. You’re not going to like it. It’s called acculturation. And the only reality involved in acquiring such a thing is being born and raised in a specific society. You didn't choose your religion, Ralph. Society did.
So, yeh, you are all religions and all creeds. In this discussion, you personally, Ralph, are the collective embodiment of every shaman, apologist, preacher and priest throughout all of history. You got big shoes.
Your god is non-existent. There is no reason to believe.
Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to defend against that.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2697 by Raphael, posted 03-20-2021 7:17 AM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2701 by Phat, posted 03-20-2021 4:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2705 by Raphael, posted 03-21-2021 1:29 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2703 of 3207 (885062)
03-20-2021 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2702 by AnswersInGenitals
03-20-2021 5:08 PM


Re: God = Love = Oxytocin = Chemistry
Raph (not Ralph)
Oh.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2702 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 03-20-2021 5:08 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 2704 of 3207 (885063)
03-20-2021 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2701 by Phat
03-20-2021 4:03 PM


Re: You The Man
The reality or not of what you insist we should believe is the only issue here.
Is it?
Yes, it kind of is. At least IMHO.
If we can come to terms on belief, a near impossible task but bear with me, then either your side wins the war (not) or all religions ... all religions ... fail.
I attack belief, religion, as irrational. Not reflective of reality, highly prone to manipulation and as such is a continuing danger to societies. To our species.
I know. It's a big job, but somebody's gotta do it.
Its a bit silly for me to defend or attempt to defend God.
Well he can't seem to do it himself. He needs warriors. Live ones. Ones that can bleed and die.
What I'm trying to do is to defend you against what you mistakenly think is your own intellect yet is really not you.
If this isn't my intellect whose is it? More importantly, can I swap it out for something considerably better? I'm thinking Feynman class. No, I don't want to be him, I just would like to have that level of intellectual ability.
If you could arrange that for me Phat, that would be great. I'd put you back on my baby-eating dinner guest list?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2701 by Phat, posted 03-20-2021 4:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2707 of 3207 (885069)
03-21-2021 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2705 by Raphael
03-21-2021 1:29 AM


Re: You The Man
So you do believe in a supernatural being. That seems enough to start with.
Everything else involved in a specific creed is not important.
You believe.
You believe in the god of Genesis. Yet, you don't believe in the full narrative of the Genesis account. Interesting. But not now.
Perfect! So then you already know approaching this conversation with an epistemology bias towards the scientific method doesn't work.
Quite the contrary, the scientific method is known as the only method that does work, if by 'work' we mean accurately modeling the reality being examined. My bias is not negotiable. The science rules.
I'm fine to limit the discussion to the bare essence, I just feel you haven't taken into account that there are a multiplicity of ways to perceive and understand the bare essence, if that makes sense.
No, but that's why god made explanations.
What different ways are you perceiving the question?
The bare essence, to me, is the fact that you believe in a supernatural being, specifically YHWH. You believe this being is actual, real, has influence over this universe, has worked his special will on this universe, with a special interest in Earth and a tribe of violent destructive people in the Levant.
Despite my political comments is this pretty much correct?
Have we filled in the vacuum?
Essentially what I'm trying to get across is there are many ways of understanding the ideas you have attacked and dismiss.
I understand that. That's why we narrow the target, eh the subject, to the most basic concept reasonable. The only idea I wish to attack and dismiss is this concept of belief.
My hope would be that there are ways of understanding these issues you would be a lot more comfortable with.
Thank you, but I am quite comfortable with my understanding of things.
I'm comfortable with the unproveable faith gaps in my worldview. How do you feel about yours?
I hate 'em. That's why I'm a scientist. Gotta fill those holes. Problem is every time we fill a hole, new ones open up. It's a never ending cycle of endless hole filling. Endless learning. And god I do love it so, like the smell of cordite in the morning.
I just don't really think you've done enough diligent work to know who that God is.
So now you're going to tell me how special your god is over all the others.
You realize that's been beat to death, right? Hardly seems to matter. They are all pretty much the same. Other than for different hair styles, fancy dress, various numbers of arms, hands, faces, they're all pretty much the same.
But, before I ask my major question, you seem to have some issues you feel need addressing. Please do.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2705 by Raphael, posted 03-21-2021 1:29 AM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2708 by Phat, posted 03-21-2021 9:37 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2721 by Raphael, posted 03-25-2021 9:55 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 2709 of 3207 (885076)
03-21-2021 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2708 by Phat
03-21-2021 9:37 AM


Re: You The Man
So you determine what is and is not interesting?
Of course, Phat. Interest is a personal thing that develops deep in the mind.
Your interests appear to be god, salvation, and a whole lot of other quite human concerns. Doesn't mean you are right or wrong in your interests. There is no right or wrong to interest. It just knocks around inside your head.
You determine what interests you. We'll argue about whether the results of your interests are accurate, reasonable and like that.
What you are not allowed to do is attempt to remove a mans belief.
Of course I am allowed and vise versa. First, that is what the art of persuasion is all about. Second, society could not function if minds could not change.
You are not allowed to write the default rules on how a human must think.
I can try.
Superstition has ruled humanity for millennia and it's been an unmitigated disaster of blood, torture and death.
Rationality is just dawning in our species on a societal level. We are not only allowed, it is imperative that we elevate reality to the position of prime decision maker.
Superstition needs to die. Or at most relegated to childhood fantasies. I even chaffe at that.
You will claim that religion and belief are harmful to people.
And so it is.
For an isolated individual we know how religion can salve a human mind in distress. There are better ways to do that but religion is a useful vector in a lot of people. But on a societal level, inter-group interactions, superstition with it's disconnect from reality has been a bloody disaster to all humanity.
Superstition often rips away empathy and compassion leaving a collective mind susceptible to manipulation. Mob rule. Riot. Crusades.
Superstition bad, Phat. Very bad.
Yes, our God IS special. You know this, deep down and it burns. You would prefer to be Him yourself.
Of course he is, Snowflake. Just like all the others.
If I were god, we would not be having this conversation. I'd be off haunting Joel Osteen and Peter Popoff with blisters and boils.
You think that its time for you and science to rule?
Well not so much me, though I appreciate the elevated status you grace me with, but, science? Yah, it's well past time this species gave up on superstition and embraced reality in most if not all things.
Thank you, but I am quite comfortable with my understanding of things.
And you don't want to grant us the same right?
What are you talking about? Of course all have the right to their thoughts. That does not mean those thoughts are realistic, logical, moral. I'm out to persuade. I'm allowed to attempt that. Just like you evangelizing.
So you wish to fill every hole. With the substance that all of society MUST agree on, correct?
Since the analogy is about filling those holes with actual real knowledge gleaned from observation, yes, I wish to fill every hole in our knowledge with a substance that cannot be realistically challenged - facts from reality.
It wont happen. Take that to the Supreme Court!
The court already knows answers always lead to more questions. And the court, as I understand it, is more involved with scrutinizing the law than science.
Science hasn't stopped, Phat. We're filling those holes as fast as we can and entire new fields of new questions keep popping up. It will never end. A glorious eternity of learning. Science. Nirvana.
Yes, but after the crucifixion He rose again.
Fairytale. If he existed in reality at all and was actually crucified then he is dead.
As for Raph, note that I got the name right, I want to challenge the basis for his belief. I don't think he will break down in existential angst. He seems strong enough.
Don't worry. I'll keep my asshole insultive tendencies to a minimum.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2708 by Phat, posted 03-21-2021 9:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2710 of 3207 (885085)
03-22-2021 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 2708 by Phat
03-21-2021 9:37 AM


Re: You The Man
Ok, I'm slow. I just realized what you're doing, Phat.
You think I'm a demon out to destroy Raph's faith. You honestly believe that, don't you.
Phat, Phat, Phat. How perceptive and yet how damn dumb at the same time.
If given the opportunity, yes, I will poke and prod at his belief system. Yes, if I could convert him to BEA (baby-eating atheism) I would be ecstatic but I realistically don't hold out much hope of that.
This is for the spectator, the lurker. That's why I let him know he represents more in this talk than merely his own interests. In challenging Raph's view I will, I hope, be challenging all belief systems based on superstitious BS.
I'm not going to convert anybody, maybe. I'm not going to destroy anyone's life like your creed requires you do to people. (oooo, you're going to hell, heathen demon) I aim to challenge the thought process of superstition and expose its weaknesses and fatalities.
In doing so, I hope that in some small way the lurkers and spectators will help our society move away from the scourge of superstition.
This is an excellent example of just the BS I'm talking about. Demonize the opposition as a step to adding hate to the formula.
Your god sucks.
But then that's pretty much what you would expect a demon to say. Better burn me at the stake just to be safe.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2708 by Phat, posted 03-21-2021 9:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2711 by jar, posted 03-22-2021 4:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2712 of 3207 (885103)
03-22-2021 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2711 by jar
03-22-2021 4:28 PM


Re: You The Man
So, do I have to burn?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2711 by jar, posted 03-22-2021 4:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2713 by jar, posted 03-23-2021 3:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2714 of 3207 (885112)
03-23-2021 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2713 by jar
03-23-2021 3:18 PM


Re: You The Man
No, no, thank you. I think I'll pass. I don't want to burn.
So, is that it? Am I done? I don't have to burn?
Or is there something I need to do to affect my do not burn status?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2713 by jar, posted 03-23-2021 3:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2715 by jar, posted 03-24-2021 10:53 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2716 of 3207 (885122)
03-24-2021 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 2715 by jar
03-24-2021 10:53 AM


Re: You The Man
Welcome back, Lord. We need your help everywhere.
Sign me up.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2715 by jar, posted 03-24-2021 10:53 AM jar has not replied

  
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