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Author Topic:   Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings
youwerecreatedbyjc
Member
Posts: 1925
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 211 of 290 (882248)
09-16-2020 9:52 AM


wow
The Prophecy of Simeon
…34Then Simeon blessed them and said to His mother Mary: “Behold, this Child is appointed to cause the rise and fall of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed— and a sword will pierce your soul as well. 36There was also a prophetess named Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, who was well along in years. She had been married for seven years,…

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2020 11:37 AM youwerecreatedbyjc has not yet responded
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 212 of 290 (882250)
09-16-2020 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by youwerecreatedbyjc
09-16-2020 9:22 AM


Friendly Warning
I noticed that Moose is mad at you for your personal attacks on other members.

Message 42

I wanted to allow you to vent some of your anxiety here at EvC since you used to frequent this forum as a kid along with your twin brother, but I do see where you are going a bit overboard with your spam and all, so I am going to intervene on behalf of the administrators in order to keep your participation at our weird little Forum open for now. Forum Guidelines

Granted you are not the only member engaging in personal attacks on others as they dish it right back at you *cough*AZPaul3 *cough, but Moose is speaking on behalf of the interest of the Forum-at-large. Tangle got mad at me for even giving you your own topic, but I like you and want to give you this opportunity to rant and yet still improve your communication skills with others---especially our resident liberals.

So my solution is to both warn you to think before posting (a message which I myself need to hear) and to encourage you to freely express your concerns here in this topic, focusing on the positive defense of conservatism and Roman Catholicism yet having the discipline to refrain from spamming the Forum with negative media attacks on the opposition. Anyone who actually wants to engage Chris (memento chronological) here in his topic needs to also be reminded to keep the dialogue focused on the issues and not make it personal.

IF that is at all possible! I sometimes think that we humans actually like ranting and being disresapectful to each other.

For now, as a discipline, I am limiting memento chronological to the free for all forum and reminding everyone that if you choose to respond to his content in this topic, you and he will be showcased publicly. ~~

Phat, acting as AdminPhat yet speaking personally.

Also note that Chris has a history of aliases.

quote:
--TheEducatedBelieveInGod
-messenjah of one
a servant of Christ
chris porcelain
Chris Porteus
CHRIS PORTEUS jr
chris simon porteus jr
Christ crucified?
Either/or
friend of Kierkegaard
funny
Hey Mick, chat a minute?
Kierkegaard
lovesnature
messenjaH
messenjaH of oNe
momentofclarity
proudly roman catholic
riotcoming
working out eating chips

CSP responding to AZPaul3 writes:

it's easier for you to believe i'm a simpleton because i'm a threat to your inept belief system. the truth is that i'm near genius level. summa cum laude and everything else.

You do have a creative mind,as did Faith and also as I myself claim to have.

We are Creationists (though I only claim to be a Cosmological Creationist and not a Biblical one.)

Tangle commented on what he sees as a common trait among us.

Tangle writes:

We seem to be attracting only the nutters now.
Not all religious believers are nutters, but you wouldn't know it if you came only here.

I really don't know why we engage with them anymore, nothing can be achieved, we've heard everything, they don't even provide entertainment, trying to reason with them is just cruel. “Never try to teach a pig to sing; it doesn't work and it annoys the pig.” “You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.” etc

The real problem is that humankind has only recently learned how to reason in quantity. It’s spent many thousands of years not reasoning, relying on superstition, folk stories and doctrine - only a minority of humanity can do it naturally now.(...)Neither he nor Faith are stupid, they're both reasonably intelligent it's just that their intelligence has been corrupted by the religious disease that prevents rational thought. They can learn the rules of logic and science but break them all the time, perhaps without knowing. (But increasingly I think it's deliberate.) They then go on to accuse those pointing out their errors of being irrational.

I suppose it has to be because they're all self-taught and uneducated. They've never had anyone with real training to correct them, they impress each other and that's good enough for them. If you've never properly studied a scientific discipline (or philosophical one for that matter) you have no concept of the sheer volume of real, proper work lying behind all of it and the intellectual rigour applied. I get the impression they think it's just a bunch of people with opinions and they have opinions too so their's are just as valid.

AZPaul3 likesa to fire back definite lack of belief "evidence" just as easily as Creationists attempt to fire our "evidence" at him. He loves a good fight!

So in summation, dont get mad at me for limiting you to this forum for now. Im keeping Moose from banning you.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by youwerecreatedbyjc, posted 09-16-2020 9:22 AM youwerecreatedbyjc has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 213 of 290 (882251)
09-16-2020 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by youwerecreatedbyjc
09-16-2020 9:22 AM


wotsisnametoday? writes:

the truth is that i'm near genius level.

It's amazing how many of you fruitcakes are.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by youwerecreatedbyjc, posted 09-16-2020 9:22 AM youwerecreatedbyjc has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5305
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 214 of 290 (882252)
09-16-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by youwerecreatedbyjc
09-16-2020 9:52 AM


Re: wow

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by youwerecreatedbyjc, posted 09-16-2020 9:52 AM youwerecreatedbyjc has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 215 of 290 (882253)
09-16-2020 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by youwerecreatedbyjc
09-16-2020 12:13 AM


atheists believe there is no god yet they cannot prove that something can come from nothing.
it can't.

By that logic, God can't exist.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by youwerecreatedbyjc, posted 09-16-2020 12:13 AM youwerecreatedbyjc has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 216 of 290 (882254)
09-16-2020 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by youwerecreatedbyjc
09-16-2020 9:22 AM


the truth is that i'm near genius level. summa cum laude and everything else.

I use my Nobel Prize as a paperweight.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by youwerecreatedbyjc, posted 09-16-2020 9:22 AM youwerecreatedbyjc has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 217 of 290 (882258)
09-16-2020 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by ringo
09-16-2020 12:20 PM


The Uncaused First Cause Argument
CSP writes:

atheists believe there is no god yet they cannot prove that something can come from nothing.
it can't.


ringo writes:

By that logic, God can't exist.

Apologists and philosophers often jump to the uncaused first cause argument. You may ask why we would never use this argument for any other God but only for the One whom we acknowledge but the entire argument is based upon only One.

Argument from first cause

Rational Wiki writes:

Everything that comes into being must have a cause
This is determined from both observation and the logic behind causality. Everything that is observed in the universe has some form of cause behind it and this forms the basis of conservation of momentum and energy. Within causality there is a unifying logic between an effect (something caused) and an affect (cause). An affectless effect and an effectless affect are logically nonsensical propositions.

An infinite regress of causes is impossible.
Disallowing an infinite regress of causes is, technically speaking, an assertion required for the argument to work.

We must therefore arrive at a first cause.
Following from disallowing an infinite regress of causes, there must be a point where the first cause appears. This is the concept first developed by Aristotle and expanded upon by Aquinas as the "unmoved mover" or the "uncaused causer".

This first cause is God.
Having established the existence of the first cause, it is asserted that this cause is none other than the God of choice of the person making the argument.

Notes:The change in phrasing from "everything that exists" to "everything that begins to exist" is an attempt to avoid infinite regress and the question of "So what was the cause for (your) god's existence?" in a slightly more clever way than claiming that the deity is self- or uncaused. By referring to "everything that begins to exist", the apologist is pre-emptively excluding any eternal (or "timeless" in William Lane Craig's even more clunky terminology) phenomena or beings (e.g the Abrahamic God).
Then add some (more) dubious logic to get from "a cause" to "(my) god". This approach is probably best known from William Lane Craig who has used a version of the Kalām as the cornerstone of his apologetics since at least his 1979 Ph.D. thesis on Philosophy of Religion.

Personally, I always say that it makes more sense to me that Mind came before Matter. You have historically challenged the notion, just as you love to challenge everything! But your whole premise of "In The Beginning, Chemicals" is an ode to Physicalism otherwise known as Materialism.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by ringo, posted 09-16-2020 12:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2020 1:56 PM Phat has responded
 Message 221 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2020 2:29 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 225 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2020 7:06 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 09-17-2020 12:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 218 of 290 (882259)
09-16-2020 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by youwerecreatedbyjc
09-10-2020 12:39 PM


Re:
memento chronological writes:

i believe in god because no one ever gave me agape love. except jesus christ.

That's most unfortunate.
I wish you better in your future relationships.

Eros/Brotherly/Agape...

Those terms seem outdated.

Eros Love = Lust
Brotherly Love = Friendship
Agape Love = Love

Or, at least, that's how everyone I've ever talked to understands the terms.

love that humans can't know alone.

without Christ

we would never feel agape love

If you really think that's true - you have a lot more to learn about Love, and humans.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by youwerecreatedbyjc, posted 09-10-2020 12:39 PM youwerecreatedbyjc has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 219 of 290 (882261)
09-16-2020 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by youwerecreatedbyjc
09-16-2020 9:52 AM


The Humanity Of A Mother
I looked up The Prophecy of Simeon and found some interesting commentaries. This one was the best:
The Prophecy of Simeon: Seven Sorrows of Mary

What I like (and learn from and am educated by) about commentaries of Biblical Scripture is the fact that I see the scripture through the eyes of another human, one who is learned and also a believer in the scripture as being more than just human opinion and belief.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by youwerecreatedbyjc, posted 09-16-2020 9:52 AM youwerecreatedbyjc has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 220 of 290 (882262)
09-16-2020 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
09-16-2020 1:37 PM


Re: The Uncaused First Cause Argument
Phat writes:

This first cause is God

And who or what caused the first cause?

Sorry, the logic doesn't work, it's a paradox.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 09-16-2020 1:37 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 09-16-2020 4:06 PM Tangle has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16548
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 221 of 290 (882264)
09-16-2020 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
09-16-2020 1:37 PM


Re: The Uncaused First Cause Argument
I have three comments to make.

First, there is no adequate evidential or logical case against an infinite regress. I can manage better (but not decisive) arguments against a Creator God. Nevertheless I do not accept an infinite regress, or that everything came from nothing (in the absolute sense of ‘nothing ‘).

Second, it is a huge step from a First Cause to a Creator, and almost as big a step from a generic Creator to the specific Gods proposed by human religions. I have seen attempts to bridge the first gap, but they are sadly inadequate.

Third, as best we can tell the only minds we know of are dependent on matter - indeed on complex organised matter. It does not make sense to argue that mind proceeded matter unless we can establish that a non-material mind can exist, and exist in a way that would permit it to exist prior to matter. That has not been done.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 09-16-2020 1:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 222 of 290 (882265)
09-16-2020 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Tangle
09-16-2020 1:56 PM


Re: The Uncaused First Cause Argument
Tangle writes:

And who or what caused the first cause?

For a smart guy you really don't pay much attention do you?

Note the Wiki article which I quoted. It has notes. One of them states:
The change in phrasing from "everything that exists" to "everything that begins to exist" is an attempt to avoid infinite regress and the question of "So what was the cause for (your) god's existence?" in a slightly more clever way than claiming that the deity is self- or uncaused. By referring to "everything that begins to exist", the apologist is pre-emptively excluding any eternal (or "timeless" in William Lane Craig's even more clunky terminology) phenomena or beings (e.g the Abrahamic God).

You are challenging the logic by even daring to ask the question. One thing is evident. Something existed before your logic was even formed.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2020 1:56 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2020 5:25 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 223 of 290 (882270)
09-16-2020 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Phat
09-16-2020 4:06 PM


Re: The Uncaused First Cause Argument
Phat writes:

For a smart guy you really don't pay much attention do you?

Not only do I pay attention, I also think for myself. Try it.

Does what you've quoted make sense to you? Are you impressed by the linguistic gymnastics?

We have something.

It either existed forever (which, of course makes no normal sense) or it came into existence at some point in time.

The way we are built and our everyday experience tells us that things that come into existence require a cause. The way religions deal with that is to invoke a god that didn't require a cause. That's just a convenient fiction isn't it? It denies the first premise, that things require causes. It's a false premise.

Like our 'something' the same logic tells us that God - or more usually gods - have to come from somewhere or to always exist. Fiddling with words does not solve that very real paradox.

You are challenging the logic by even daring to ask the question.

Oh ffs, wake up and think you silly person.

One thing is evident. Something existed before your logic was even formed.

Now that, at least, is true. But it's not a philosophical problem that can be solved by manipulating language. It's actually a very simple problem to state, but it has no answer and may never have one.

So how do you explain it? How can something exist - even what we call a god - without a cause? Godditit is not an answer because it leaves behind the same question - who or what created the creator?

That paradox can not be solved in language because it's created by the poverty of our language. If it can be solved, it will be solved by the language of mathematics and we normals will not understand it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 09-16-2020 4:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 224 of 290 (882271)
09-16-2020 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Phat
09-15-2020 6:06 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

Here are some good articles to chew on, Chris.

Why haven't you asked your mate thingamebob whether you are going to hell yet?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 09-15-2020 6:06 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5305
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 225 of 290 (882272)
09-16-2020 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
09-16-2020 1:37 PM


Re: The Uncaused First Cause Argument
Apologists and philosophers often jump to the uncaused first cause argument.

If there must be an uncaused first cause I nominate the big bang.

From all our present science this big-bang-created universe appears to be all there is or will be or ever was.

Sounds like a good uncaused first cause to me.

And there is only the one to be considered. No mucking about with all those various gods.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 09-16-2020 1:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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