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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
PaulK
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Posts: 16812
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(4)
Message 2686 of 2754 (882257)
09-16-2020 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2685 by Stile
09-16-2020 12:51 PM


Re: Religion for the Non-Religious
I’d suggest that religion is as often a barrier to growth as a sign of it. At least. Focussing on dogma and clinging to it no matter what is not the way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2685 by Stile, posted 09-16-2020 12:51 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
xongsmith
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Posts: 2023
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


(5)
Message 2687 of 2754 (883675)
01-05-2021 2:08 AM


Einstein's God of Spinoza
I'm not sure I can completely agree, but...

Found on my facebook by William Berkshire:

Did you know that when Einstein gave lectures at the numerous US universities he was invited to, the recurring question that students asked him was:
Do you believe in God?
And he always answered:
I believe in the God of Spinoza.
The ones who hadn't read Spinoza didn't understand...
I hope this gem of history, serves you as much as it does me:
Baruch de Spinoza was a Dutch philosopher considered one of the three great rationalists of 17th-century philosophy, along with René Descartes in France, and Gottfried Leibniz in Germany.
Here's some of his wisdom:
God would have said:
Stop praying and punching yourself in the chest!
What I want you to do is go out into the world and enjoy your life. I want you to enjoy, sing, have fun and enjoy everything I've made for you.
Stop going to those dark, cold temples that you built yourself and say they are my house! My house is in the mountains, in the woods, rivers, lakes, beaches. That's where I live and there I express my love for you.
Stop blaming me for your miserable life; I never told you there was anything wrong with you or that you were a sinner, or that your sexuality was a bad thing! Sex is a gift I have given you and with which you can express your love, your ecstasy, your joy. So don't blame me for everything they made you believe.
Stop reading alleged sacred scriptures that have nothing to do with me. If you can't read me in a sunrise, in a landscape, in the look of your friends, in your son's eyes... you will find me in no book! Trust me and stop asking me. Would you tell me how to do my job?
Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or seek to punish you. I am pure love.
Stop asking for forgiveness, there's nothing to forgive. If I made you... I filled you with passions, limitations, pleasures, feelings, needs, inconsistencies... free will. How can I blame you if you respond to something I put in you? How can I punish you for being the way you are, if I'm the one who made you? Do you think I could create a place to burn all my children who behave badly for the rest of eternity? What kind of God would do that?
Forget any kind of commandments, any kind of laws; those are wiles to manipulate you, to control you, that only create guilt in you.
Respect your peers and don't do what you don't want for yourself. All I ask is that you pay attention in your life, that your consciousness is your guide.
My beloved, this life is not a test, not a step, not a rehearsal, nor a prelude to paradise. This life is the only thing that exists here and now, and it is all you need.
I have set you absolutely free, no prizes or punishments, no sins or virtues... no one carries a marker, no one keeps a record.
You are absolutely free to create in your life heaven or hell.
I could tell you if there's anything after this life, but I won't... but I can give you a tip. Live as if there is nothing after... as if this is your only chance to enjoy, to love, to exist.
So, if there's nothing, then you will have enjoyed the opportunity I gave you. And if there is, rest assured that I won't ask if you behaved right or wrong, I'll ask. Did you like it? Did you have fun? What did you enjoy the most? What did you learn?...
Stop believing in me; believing is assuming, guessing, imagining. I don't want you to believe in me... I want you to feel me in you when you kiss your beloved, when you tuck in your little girl, when you caress your dog, when you bathe in the sea.
Stop praising me, what kind of egomaniac God do you think I am?
I'm bored being praised, I'm tired of being thanked. Feeling grateful? Prove it by taking care of yourself, your health, your relationships, the world. Express your joy!... that's the way to praise me.
Stop complicating things and repeating as a parakeet what you've been taught about me.
The only thing for sure is that you are here, that you are alive, and that this world is full of wonders.
What do you need more miracles for? Why so many explanations?
Look for me outside... you won't find me. Find me inside... there I am beating within you.
Spinoza.


"I'd rather be an American than a Trump Supporter."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


Replies to this message:
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 Message 2690 by Percy, posted 03-18-2021 1:57 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4036
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 2688 of 2754 (883676)
01-05-2021 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2687 by xongsmith
01-05-2021 2:08 AM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Thanks xongsmith, I did not know such specifics of "Spinoza's God."

Sounds really good, actually.

Spinoza's wisdom writes:

Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or seek to punish you. I am pure love.

I am pure love.

I really like that part.
That's what I've always thought.

If God is pure love... then Love is God. And we know Love exists, most of us experience (at least parts of) it every day.
And if we know Love is there, and understand Love - there's no need for God, because they're the same thing.

If they're not the same... if some part of God is not Love... then that part of God isn't worthy of following/understanding anyway.

And, again, we come down to: understand, follow and fill your life with Love. No mention or understanding or following of God is necessary.
For all things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2687 by xongsmith, posted 01-05-2021 2:08 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2693 by Raphael, posted 03-19-2021 8:15 PM Stile has not yet responded

  
FLRW
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 2689 of 2754 (884950)
03-16-2021 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2687 by xongsmith
01-05-2021 2:08 AM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Einstein talked about his belief in the God of Spinoza in 1929. In 1954 , a year before he died, he said, “The word God is for me nothing but the expression of and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change anything about this.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2687 by xongsmith, posted 01-05-2021 2:08 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20034
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 2690 of 2754 (884994)
03-18-2021 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2687 by xongsmith
01-05-2021 2:08 AM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
xongsmith writes:

Found on my facebook by William Berkshire:

I don't know who William Berkshire is, but I found that article at innumerable places on the web, all with horrible formatting that makes it difficult reading, but it says that when Einstein was lecturing at universities across the US he said he believed in the God of Spinoza, and then whoever wrote the article goes on to quote Spinoza at length.

To me the lengthy Spinoza quote seems to capture a little of the spirit of what I recall of Spinoza's religious philosophy, but it seems doubtful that he wrote it, and I could find no evidence that he did. For examples, I don't believe Spinoza was ever translated as having written, "But I can give you a tip," or that he made copious and inappropriate use of ellipses.

Here's that article with formatting so that it's easier to read:

quote:
Did you know that when Einstein gave lectures at the numerous US universities he was invited to, the recurring question that students asked him was, "Do you believe in God?" And he always answered, "I believe in the God of Spinoza."

The ones who hadn't read Spinoza didn't understand. I hope this gem of history serves you as much as it does me.

Baruch de Spinoza was a Dutch philosopher considered one of the three great rationalists of 17th-century philosophy, along with René Descartes in France, and Gottfried Leibniz in Germany. Here's some of his wisdom:

God would have said, "Stop praying and punching yourself in the chest! What I want you to do is go out into the world and enjoy your life. I want you to enjoy, sing, have fun and enjoy everything I've made for you.

"Stop going to those dark, cold temples that you built yourself and say they are my house! My house is in the mountains, in the woods, rivers, lakes, beaches. That's where I live and there I express my love for you.

"Stop blaming me for your miserable life; I never told you there was anything wrong with you or that you were a sinner, or that your sexuality was a bad thing! Sex is a gift I have given you and with which you can express your love, your ecstasy, your joy. So don't blame me for everything they made you believe.

"Stop reading alleged sacred scriptures that have nothing to do with me. If you can't read me in a sunrise, in a landscape, in the look of your friends, in your son's eyes... you will find me in no book! Trust me and stop asking me. Would you tell me how to do my job?

"Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or seek to punish you. I am pure love.

"Stop asking for forgiveness, there's nothing to forgive. If I made you... I filled you with passions, limitations, pleasures, feelings, needs, inconsistencies... free will. How can I blame you if you respond to something I put in you? How can I punish you for being the way you are, if I'm the one who made you? Do you think I could create a place to burn all my children who behave badly for the rest of eternity? What kind of God would do that?

"Forget any kind of commandments, any kind of laws; those are wiles to manipulate you, to control you, that only create guilt in you.

"Respect your peers and don't do what you don't want for yourself. All I ask is that you pay attention in your life, that your consciousness is your guide.

"My beloved, this life is not a test, not a step, not a rehearsal, nor a prelude to paradise. This life is the only thing that exists here and now, and it is all you need.

"I have set you absolutely free, no prizes or punishments, no sins or virtues... no one carries a marker, no one keeps a record.

"You are absolutely free to create in your life heaven or hell.

"I could tell you if there's anything after this life, but I won't... but I can give you a tip. Live as if there is nothing after... as if this is your only chance to enjoy, to love, to exist.

"So, if there's nothing, then you will have enjoyed the opportunity I gave you. And if there is, rest assured that I won't ask if you behaved right or wrong, I'll ask. Did you like it? Did you have fun? What did you enjoy the most? What did you learn?...

"Stop believing in me; believing is assuming, guessing, imagining. I don't want you to believe in me... I want you to feel me in you when you kiss your beloved, when you tuck in your little girl, when you caress your dog, when you bathe in the sea.

"Stop praising me, what kind of egomaniac God do you think I am?

"I'm bored being praised, I'm tired of being thanked. Feeling grateful? Prove it by taking care of yourself, your health, your relationships, the world. Express your joy!... that's the way to praise me.

"Stop complicating things and repeating as a parakeet what you've been taught about me.

"The only thing for sure is that you are here, that you are alive, and that this world is full of wonders.

"What do you need more miracles for? Why so many explanations?

"Look for me outside... you won't find me. Find me inside... there I am beating within you."

Spinoza.


Here's some genuine Spinoza from Spinoza's Short Treatise on God, Man and Human Welfare:

quote:
All things which exist in nature, are either objects or actions. Now good and evil are neither objects nor actions. Therefore good and evil do not exist in nature. For if good and evil are objects or actions they must have definitions. But good and evil (for instance, the goodness of Peter and the wickedness of Judas) have no definition apart from the existence of Peter and Judas; for existence is only in nature and they can not be defined apart from their existence. Therefore as above, it follows that good and evil are neither objects nor actions which exist in nature.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2687 by xongsmith, posted 01-05-2021 2:08 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2691 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 3:32 PM Percy has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15223
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2691 of 2754 (885003)
03-18-2021 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2690 by Percy
03-18-2021 1:57 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Could it be argued that Angels and Demons, if they can be proven to exist at all, are also not objects in nature?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2690 by Percy, posted 03-18-2021 1:57 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2692 by Percy, posted 03-18-2021 4:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20034
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 2692 of 2754 (885004)
03-18-2021 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 2691 by Phat
03-18-2021 3:32 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Phat writes:

Could it be argued that Angels and Demons, if they can be proven to exist at all, are also not objects in nature?

I only provided that short excerpt of Spinoza's writing to show that the supposed Spinoza quote in the Einstein story doesn't much resemble Spinoza's actual writing. I didn't mean to change the subject.

It's a shame that the original author of those words appears to be lost. At one point he appears to be addressing a loved one ("My beloved"), so my guess is that it is from a letter. I think the original was not in English because I found what looks like an alternative translation at The Awakening of Humanity | Sinchi Runa.

To address your question, I don't know Spinoza's position on angels and demons, but one thing I read suggested he likely rejected the possibility because he didn't think there was any such thing as disembodied minds.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2691 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 3:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Raphael
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: 09-29-2007
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 2693 of 2754 (885039)
03-19-2021 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2688 by Stile
01-05-2021 12:40 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Hola friends been awhile. Thought I'd pop in here and join the conversation.

Stile writes:

If God is pure love... then Love is God. And we know Love exists, most of us experience (at least parts of) it every day.
And if we know Love is there, and understand Love - there's no need for God, because they're the same thing.

It sounds to me Stile like you believe in God a lot more than you think you do . What you're saying is really similar to the Apostle John in 1 John, where he writes,

1 John 4:7 writes:

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God."

Sounds like the scriptures agree with you more than you realize

If they're not the same... if some part of God is not Love... then that part of God isn't worthy of following/understanding anyway.

And, again, we come down to: understand, follow and fill your life with Love. No mention or understanding or following of God is necessary.

This is interesting reasoning to me. I want to understand it better haha.

If love has a being, why wouldn't I want to follow it/him/her/they? If a Divine Being exists, and it embodies love, why wouldn't we want more of it in our life? Your reasoning here seems to be throwing away one specific outcome because you have rejected it ahead of time, not because you don't find it compelling. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you and if so I apologize!

Much love friends (even you Ringo! lolol),

Raph


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2688 by Stile, posted 01-05-2021 12:40 PM Stile has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2694 by AZPaul3, posted 03-19-2021 8:50 PM Raphael has responded
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5802
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2694 of 2754 (885040)
03-19-2021 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2693 by Raphael
03-19-2021 8:15 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Except with your divine being we also get the lake of fire. With Stile's Almost-God we get nice with more nice.

I like Stile's Spinoza-inspired god a whole hell of a lot better than yours.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2693 by Raphael, posted 03-19-2021 8:15 PM Raphael has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2695 by Raphael, posted 03-19-2021 9:39 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Raphael
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: 09-29-2007
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 2695 of 2754 (885041)
03-19-2021 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2694 by AZPaul3
03-19-2021 8:50 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Yo Paul, been awhile since we went back and forth lol. Hope life is treating you well these days.

AZPaul3 writes:

Except with your divine being we also get the lake of fire. With Stile's Almost-God we get nice with more nice.

Seems like you're assuming a whole lot about "my" divine being . But, at the risk of taking the bait, "nice" isn't good enough. A "nice" God would be an impotent one. A God who has a priority of ending evil in the universe, and does so with fire would be much more worth believing in, imo.

...I wonder how you will respond to this

Raph

Edit: Spelling yikes! lol

Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.

Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2694 by AZPaul3, posted 03-19-2021 8:50 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2696 by AZPaul3, posted 03-19-2021 10:58 PM Raphael has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5802
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2696 of 2754 (885042)
03-19-2021 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2695 by Raphael
03-19-2021 9:39 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Hey, Ralph.

A God who has a priority of ending evil in the universe, and does so with fire would be much more worth believing in, imo.

No, no, not any of the abrahamic gods. Those guys really love their fire. The problem I have is your good god who has a priority of ending evil is the one who created, spread and exacerbated evil to begin with. Unfortunately, image rehabilitation at this late date doesn't work.

And the audacity of the bastards. First create evil, suffering, anguish and death, let them fester for millennia then claim to be The Warrior Against Evil. The cheek.

But I tilt at windmills. Your gods aren't real, Ralph. I can't really complain about a ghost that is only in someone else's head.

Wait,

Yes I can. That's why I'm here. This is my avocation.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2695 by Raphael, posted 03-19-2021 9:39 PM Raphael has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2697 by Raphael, posted 03-20-2021 7:17 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Raphael
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: 09-29-2007
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 2697 of 2754 (885043)
03-20-2021 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2696 by AZPaul3
03-19-2021 10:58 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Appreciate the response and I think I understand better now!

AzPaul3 writes:

No, no, not any of the abrahamic gods. Those guys really love their fire. The problem I have is your good god who has a priority of ending evil is the one who created, spread and exacerbated evil to begin with. Unfortunately, image rehabilitation at this late date doesn't work.

In response, all love man, but your entire approach to this conversation is pretty intellectually arrogant. Haha. You’re doing a lot of assuming about my positions on things.

What I gather from your words is you’ve narrowed in on - or perhaps you were taught and have since rejected - one specific hermeneutic and then used that hermeneutic to come to very specific conclusions that you have airtight ways to disprove.

The issue is, there are a multiplicity of hermeneutics used to interpret scripture and I don’t really fit within the walls you’ve built for me. In fact, I’m more apt to agree with you and reject that kind of god too! You speak of “the Abrahamic religions” as if there is a single universally agreed upon systematic understanding in even one of those camps; that’s a pretty reductionist attitude imo. Real scholars take the time to understand the actual arguments of their contemporaries, so they can have an informed dialogue.

So in light of the above, I am rejecting all your conclusions and question your interpretive work. I am outside the box you have created for me and don’t claim to believe any of the things you are assuming I do

But I tilt at windmills. Your gods aren't real, Ralph. I can't really complain about a ghost that is only in someone else's head.

I mean, I hear and value your belief that my “gods” aren’t real. But it’s certainly not something any of us can demonstrably prove, right? Haha. (This is kind of bait-y but I’m gonna roll with it I think )

Raph!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2696 by AZPaul3, posted 03-19-2021 10:58 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2698 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2021 11:51 AM Raphael has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5802
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2698 of 2754 (885049)
03-20-2021 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2697 by Raphael
03-20-2021 7:17 AM


You The Man
In response, all love man, but your entire approach to this conversation is pretty intellectually arrogant.

It is indeed. And with justification. You all are selling a product. You want me to buy into it. What you see as arrogance I see as due diligence in questioning the product as well as the seller.

You’re doing a lot of assuming about my positions on things.

Yes, I am. I assume you are religious meaning you believe in something that even you cannot show is really there. I assume this something is seen, by you, as creator of the universe, all that is, seen and unseen, as the mantra goes in this forum. I assume you agree and hold to the biblical Genesis account and that your goal here is to minister to us heathens in order to save our souls from the vengeance of your imagined gods. I assume your creed includes heaven and hell as reward/punishment for levels of devotion shown. I assume you believe Da Book.

You’re a religionist, the intellectual enemy of reality and reason steeped in the majik and emotion of a realm that doesn’t even exist in this universe.

Am I close?

The issue is, there are a multiplicity of hermeneutics used to interpret scripture and I don’t really fit within the walls you’ve built for me.

There is only one box for you to fit in, Ralph. Believer. Religionist. The specifics of your belief system are not important. The box I put you in doesn’t care if you cross yourself from left-to-right or right-to-left or not at all. The reality or not of what you insist we should believe is the only issue here.

Yah, I’m a hard reductionist, so, prove yourself. Show us your evidence.

Caution, I’m also a scientist (retired). I know what constitutes evidence and what doesn’t so, please, present hard physical evidence not some wayward syllogisms with faulty logic.

Real scholars take the time to understand the actual arguments of their contemporaries, so they can have an informed dialogue.

If there is something pertinent I am missing in my assumptions about your position then please correct me.

I may seem arrogant but I’m also limiting the discussion to the bare essence. Where have I erred in my assessment that you believe in some kind of god and seek to convince others of its reality?

What other positions need to be put forward to discuss that one questionable in your creed – belief? It is the most basic question of this discussion.

This thing really is, for me, that simple. Show us your god. That’s all it takes.

I mean, I hear and value your belief that my “gods” aren’t real. But it’s certainly not something any of us can demonstrably prove, right?

Then why do you pray to this thing?

I suspect why. You’re not going to like it. It’s called acculturation. And the only reality involved in acquiring such a thing is being born and raised in a specific society. You didn't choose your religion, Ralph. Society did.

So, yeh, you are all religions and all creeds. In this discussion, you personally, Ralph, are the collective embodiment of every shaman, apologist, preacher and priest throughout all of history. You got big shoes.

Your god is non-existent. There is no reason to believe.

Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to defend against that.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2697 by Raphael, posted 03-20-2021 7:17 AM Raphael has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2701 by Phat, posted 03-20-2021 4:03 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 2705 by Raphael, posted 03-21-2021 1:29 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18985
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 2699 of 2754 (885052)
03-20-2021 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2693 by Raphael
03-19-2021 8:15 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Raphael writes:

Much love friends (even you Ringo! lolol)


Thanks for singling me out. I didn't know I was such a nemesis.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2693 by Raphael, posted 03-19-2021 8:15 PM Raphael has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2700 by Phat, posted 03-20-2021 3:54 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2706 by Raphael, posted 03-21-2021 1:35 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15223
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2700 of 2754 (885057)
03-20-2021 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2699 by ringo
03-20-2021 12:28 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2699 by ringo, posted 03-20-2021 12:28 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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