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Author | Topic: Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Here are some good articles to chew on, Chris.
7 Things Every Protestant Should Know About Catholicism 7 Things Every Catholic Should Know About Protestantism I would love to be a fly on the wall when you and Charlie get into some of your debates on these matters. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I noticed that Moose is mad at you for your personal attacks on other members.
Message 42 I wanted to allow you to vent some of your anxiety here at EvC since you used to frequent this forum as a kid along with your twin brother, but I do see where you are going a bit overboard with your spam and all, so I am going to intervene on behalf of the administrators in order to keep your participation at our weird little Forum open for now. Forum Guidelines Granted you are not the only member engaging in personal attacks on others as they dish it right back at you *cough*AZPaul3 *cough, but Moose is speaking on behalf of the interest of the Forum-at-large. Tangle got mad at me for even giving you your own topic, but I like you and want to give you this opportunity to rant and yet still improve your communication skills with others---especially our resident liberals. So my solution is to both warn you to think before posting (a message which I myself need to hear) and to encourage you to freely express your concerns here in this topic, focusing on the positive defense of conservatism and Roman Catholicism yet having the discipline to refrain from spamming the Forum with negative media attacks on the opposition. Anyone who actually wants to engage Chris (memento chronological) here in his topic needs to also be reminded to keep the dialogue focused on the issues and not make it personal. IF that is at all possible! I sometimes think that we humans actually like ranting and being disresapectful to each other. For now, as a discipline, I am limiting memento chronological to the free for all forum and reminding everyone that if you choose to respond to his content in this topic, you and he will be showcased publicly. ~~ Phat, acting as AdminPhat yet speaking personally. Also note that Chris has a history of aliases.
quote: CSP responding to AZPaul3 writes: You do have a creative mind,as did Faith and also as I myself claim to have. it's easier for you to believe i'm a simpleton because i'm a threat to your inept belief system. the truth is that i'm near genius level. summa cum laude and everything else. We are Creationists (though I only claim to be a Cosmological Creationist and not a Biblical one.) Tangle commented on what he sees as a common trait among us.
Tangle writes: We seem to be attracting only the nutters now.Not all religious believers are nutters, but you wouldn't know it if you came only here. I really don't know why we engage with them anymore, nothing can be achieved, we've heard everything, they don't even provide entertainment, trying to reason with them is just cruel. Never try to teach a pig to sing; it doesn't work and it annoys the pig. You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. etc The real problem is that humankind has only recently learned how to reason in quantity. It’s spent many thousands of years not reasoning, relying on superstition, folk stories and doctrine - only a minority of humanity can do it naturally now.(...)Neither he nor Faith are stupid, they're both reasonably intelligent it's just that their intelligence has been corrupted by the religious disease that prevents rational thought. They can learn the rules of logic and science but break them all the time, perhaps without knowing. (But increasingly I think it's deliberate.) They then go on to accuse those pointing out their errors of being irrational. I suppose it has to be because they're all self-taught and uneducated. They've never had anyone with real training to correct them, they impress each other and that's good enough for them. If you've never properly studied a scientific discipline (or philosophical one for that matter) you have no concept of the sheer volume of real, proper work lying behind all of it and the intellectual rigour applied. I get the impression they think it's just a bunch of people with opinions and they have opinions too so their's are just as valid. AZPaul3 likesa to fire back definite lack of belief "evidence" just as easily as Creationists attempt to fire our "evidence" at him. He loves a good fight! So in summation, dont get mad at me for limiting you to this forum for now. Im keeping Moose from banning you. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
CSP writes:
atheists believe there is no god yet they cannot prove that something can come from nothing.it can't. ringo writes: Apologists and philosophers often jump to the uncaused first cause argument. You may ask why we would never use this argument for any other God but only for the One whom we acknowledge but the entire argument is based upon only One.
By that logic, God can't exist. Argument from first cause Rational Wiki writes: Everything that comes into being must have a causeThis is determined from both observation and the logic behind causality. Everything that is observed in the universe has some form of cause behind it and this forms the basis of conservation of momentum and energy. Within causality there is a unifying logic between an effect (something caused) and an affect (cause). An affectless effect and an effectless affect are logically nonsensical propositions. An infinite regress of causes is impossible.Disallowing an infinite regress of causes is, technically speaking, an assertion required for the argument to work. We must therefore arrive at a first cause.Following from disallowing an infinite regress of causes, there must be a point where the first cause appears. This is the concept first developed by Aristotle and expanded upon by Aquinas as the "unmoved mover" or the "uncaused causer". This first cause is God.Having established the existence of the first cause, it is asserted that this cause is none other than the God of choice of the person making the argument. Notes:The change in phrasing from "everything that exists" to "everything that begins to exist" is an attempt to avoid infinite regress and the question of "So what was the cause for (your) god's existence?" in a slightly more clever way than claiming that the deity is self- or uncaused. By referring to "everything that begins to exist", the apologist is pre-emptively excluding any eternal (or "timeless" in William Lane Craig's even more clunky terminology) phenomena or beings (e.g the Abrahamic God).Then add some (more) dubious logic to get from "a cause" to "(my) god". This approach is probably best known from William Lane Craig who has used a version of the Kalm as the cornerstone of his apologetics since at least his 1979 Ph.D. thesis on Philosophy of Religion. Personally, I always say that it makes more sense to me that Mind came before Matter. You have historically challenged the notion, just as you love to challenge everything! But your whole premise of "In The Beginning, Chemicals" is an ode to Physicalism otherwise known as Materialism."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I looked up The Prophecy of Simeon and found some interesting commentaries. This one was the best:
The Prophecy of Simeon: Seven Sorrows of Mary What I like (and learn from and am educated by) about commentaries of Biblical Scripture is the fact that I see the scripture through the eyes of another human, one who is learned and also a believer in the scripture as being more than just human opinion and belief."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: For a smart guy you really don't pay much attention do you? And who or what caused the first cause? Note the Wiki article which I quoted. It has notes. One of them states:
The change in phrasing from "everything that exists" to "everything that begins to exist" is an attempt to avoid infinite regress and the question of "So what was the cause for (your) god's existence?" in a slightly more clever way than claiming that the deity is self- or uncaused. By referring to "everything that begins to exist", the apologist is pre-emptively excluding any eternal (or "timeless" in William Lane Craig's even more clunky terminology) phenomena or beings (e.g the Abrahamic God). You are challenging the logic by even daring to ask the question. One thing is evident. Something existed before your logic was even formed. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
First of all, good morning. This is Thursday September 17th, my second day off in a row. Yesterday was a technological eye-opener, as I was scheduled to have a crown removed and redone on onof my upper teeth and I thought I knew what to expect...but as it turns out, the Dentist can now make the permanent crowns on the spot and cut the whole procedure in half time-wise as well as eliminating the need for dealing with a temporary crown for two weeks waiting for the crown to be made. Bad news for the Labs who used to make the crowns!
So after sleeping early, I awaken early at 5 am to continue my rambling, continuous debate and discussion with one of my favorite adversaries (jar of Texas) and his ongoing quest to get me to be honest with myself and think. As an aside to the peanut gallery (those bored enough to listen to us regurgitate the same issues again and again for over ten years) I have a desire to be honest with myself and others, as I essentially consider my discussions at EvC Forum to be training for encounters with like-minded skeptics, unbelievers, and critical thinkers whom I will someday meet in life.
jar writes: You are still lying Phat. Show me where I market a God at all? As I looked back and rethought the question, I realized that you indeed do *not* market a God at all. In fact, one of those Socratic Masters or Joe Wood convinced you early on that GOD is unknowable until after you die and to just simply throw the whole concept away---that apologists were con artists and misleading, and that if you simply *did* the message and answered that charge you would be a good member of Club: Christian. So in essence, the God that I see you marketing is no God at all.
jar writes: Iano was right about you. You are essentially a fifth columnist who is assigned by an enemy whom you don't even believe in and would laugh at to undermine Christian belief. Even Satan is useful to God, however. So stay honest and do your job and God will show you your errors before this life is over we hope. Phat, I simply report what is actually written in the Bible. By the way, being the scientific critical thinker that you are, do you believe that you will meet God after you die? Do you see the One you meet as being Jesus Christ? Just curious. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Just a few quick notes, Chris. Good morning, by the way. Thursday my second day off this week.
I read with interest your exchange with PaulK. Though your argument is good, it starts with a conclusion. (That God exists) and PaulK is not one to ever easily accept such a conclusoion though if and when he does, he will be one of the strongest proponents for Christianity since he will first have accepted the evidence that convinces him. I like his style. CSP addressing AZPaul3 writes: Satan has a bag of tricks and the battle in the supernatural realm between good and evil is much bigger and more powerful than any rational scientifically minded person could ever guess.(They never guess anyway! Quote Investigator the atheistic position is untenable. it's not that there could be a creator...there has to be. life cannot compose itself intelligently out of inert matter, just as inert matter can't compose itself...atheism is a fabricationthe greatest lie satan ever told was that you were not created CSP writes: Sometimes I am compelled to think that I waste my time around here, but I have grown fond of my adversaries. If nothing else they help me form better arguments as an apologist. (A term that jar despises) I wont spend more than an hour here eveery day, however. Life is short and we are in a spiritual war. RCC knows this which is why they have exorcists. One of my favorite Protestant Excorcists is Isaiah Saldivar. Here is a recent podcast with Vladimir Savchuk .
there is a serious demonic spirit on this forum phat as we know satan loves atheists, they work for free Casting Out Demons"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Interesting. Just from what you have written in the past, I can see where the change began at and through St.Johns. Apologetics teaches that Jesus is God. It seems that you were taught that God is a product of human imagination and that GOD is forever unknowable until perhaps after death.
And if there is life after death then perhaps I will meet GOD but I would be shocked if it is the picayune Jesus you and the Apologists market. jar, as he met Joe Wood writes:
Confirmation Statement: I remember telling him that "Jesus died for my sins and so if I believed in Him I was saved." and his laugh before he said, "Well, then I guess all this is a waste of time isn't it?"Do you renew your commitment to Jesus Christ? *One would thus think that after death we meet Jesus. But notice the wording of jar himself after Confirmation:
I do, and with God's grace I will follow him as my Savior and Lord. I remember on the drive home, all of us packed together in the car, mom and dad in the front seat and IIRC at the time, about 4 kids stuffed in the back, one of my parents asked me, Well, how do you feel now? So when did Jesus get bumped out of the way and GOD took over? Whats wrong with "marketing the concept" that Jesus is God? (Or more correctly GOD) and if you were somehow taught that Apologetic s was evil, where on earth can you even assume that GOD will help you when you wont even let Jesus do it?I think I can do what I need to do. I said, I know that you and GOD will help. You evidently refuse the idea that Jesus is God.You evidently support the idea that humans universally make the Gods they create. You DO acknowledge that we will meet GOD when we die. (in your belief) Yet you wont accept that Jesus is this GOD."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So how do you explain that I have "seen" the supernatural? Not once but several times? Stage Hypnosis?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Just because other people see "other gods" does not explain anything except fake gods (actual demons posing as gods). Just as Moses was trumped by the magicians who duplicated his signs and wonders to Pharaoh. But of course I will never convince you...you think its all a matter of cultural upbringing and not actual power and evidence.
The only way you people here might be convinced is if you yourselves actually experience it. I suspect that even then you would search for any other explanation except that you actually experienced it."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
do atheists think that we are in essence our own creator? How else would a physicalist explain creativity and discovery?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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You have a good point. I cant simply expect everyone to drop their pursuit of answers in deference to my dogma. It could well be that trying to teach others to imitate my experiences is in fact harmful to them even if my dogma were true.
I got on the whole "physicalism" kick because of PaulK, whom I respect for his due diligence at getting to the bottom of these things. I used to think that he went out of his way to remain an atheist and that simply taking a leap of faith would open his skepticism up a bit...but this of course assumes my belief to be true. I have always respected your wisdom and am glad to be able to communicate. Thanks for taking the time to put up with we "nutjobs"... "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
That sounds too much like a canned answer. You claim to have experienced many of the same (or similar) unexplained events that I have, and you too easily rejected them...as does AZ Paul3, simply because you already conclude that they simply cant happen.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
That's it!!!! Let the government play God. What a novel idea!
As long as the "god" they represent is all inclusive and saves everybody! Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Does science give you a sense of certainty(even if tentative) that faith just never gave you? Or were you even brought up religious in the least?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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