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Author | Topic: Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So why are YOU so much more enlightened than they were? You take it for granted that YOU are inspired by God. Why couldn't the writers of Genesis be inspired too? Why are YOU right and they are wrong? the authors had no concept of a universal Creator or of anything other than the ground they walked on."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The more often you tell a story, the more it gets reinforced in your memory. I'm sure your story is clearer in your mind every day. I and 2 others heard voices from nowhere coming out in the air. And so are the stories of the other two witnesses. But it's almost certain that their stories are different from yours. and the clearer your memory gets, the more it will diverge from the other witnesses' memories.
Phat writes:
That's not a controlled environment. We were in a controlled environment (my apartment)."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Does that remind you of anything? have you heard the idea that "we all are sinning against GOD" anywhere else? Of course to a relativist, if everyone has a"God"in their own head...we all are sinning against GOD. I have:quote:So the "relativists" and the Bible agree. "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Son Goku Inactive Member
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So I would take several opposing concepts from scripture. Light & Dark or Visible & Invisible, for example.
I think a few concepts are being mixed up here and in other posts, especially the idea of "relativist". The people you are calling "relativist" are really either just stating how your conclusion can't really be drawn from inter-subjectively accessible evidence. There's a difference between that and relativism.And I would use them to make a point which encourages free associative type thinking. This differs from Science in that its not objectively factual...and my critics may charge me with being dishonest through making stuff up. My response is that what they teach only reinforces doubt. I market certainty in Jesus Christ.They charge me with "making God up". I'm starting to think that it is useless to attempt to disprove this notion. Relativism to me would me something along the lines of Ganesh is literally real to Hindus while Thor is literally real to Scandinavians and so on, i.e. that multiple mutually contradictory theological metaphysical views are simultaneously true each within their culture. It could also mean they are each of equal cultural value. However people here aren't really discussing either of those possibilities. They're simply saying how for the external observer there's nothing outside of personal testimony for each of these gods. Imagine I lived on an island and had scanned the horizon never seeing another landmass multiple times. One day I meet some people who each say they have in fact sailed out there. One says he saw another island, another saw a monster, another saw a floating city and so on. They all have nothing to corroborate this. It's not relativism to say "Sorry guys, I can't accept any of this". Even if we imagine you are correct none of this would be relativism. It would just be not believing due to the lack of sufficiently convincing evidence. Beyond this I would say two things:(a) As far as I can see from commentaries on the original Hebrew, the Bible isn't really monotheistic. Yahweh says he will punish the gods of Egypt, the Psalms say he will punish others in the divine council, even calling these others "gods". (b) The phrase "marketing certainty in Jesus Christ" is an interesting example of cultural differences. Again my main exposure to religion is Irish Catholicism to which phrases like this would be kind of alien. First of all because being certain in your faith is not as stressed here, in fact doubt is a big part of being Catholic here, it's supposed to be present as part of faith. Also the use of words like "marketing" would be seen as inappropriate as such since it applies mundane concepts to the transcendent. Not that this makes Irish Catholicism likely in any sense just that I want to emphasise that confining the debate to: 19th Century Science inspired materialist Atheism vs Post-Enlightenment American Evangelical Protestantism creates a very distorted view of both the religious and scientific.
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1265 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
What is this
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What is what?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Well now, thats a good question that I need to ask myself and pray about.
Whats that you say? Evidence needs to be evident for eveerybody in the room? What is it that makes global consensus and agreement concerning evidence (on the topic of religion vs no religion and early understanding of god vs later understanding of evolved "reality" and these "Theological things?)"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Everybody in EVERY room.
Whats that you say? Evidence needs to be evident for eveerybody in the room? Phat writes:
The "global consesnsus" is that there is no evidence of gods. You may think you have "evidence" for YOUR god but people who believe in different gods don't accept your "evidence", so it isn't evidence. What is it that makes global consensus and agreement concerning evidence (on the topic of religion vs no religion and early understanding of god vs later understanding of evolved "reality" and these "Theological things?)"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: The global default "position" (if there even was such a thing) is not atheism. Lets slay that demon once and for all time. The "global consesnsus" is that there is no evidence of gods. Many of you wish that were the case, but it is highly unlikely in our lifetimes."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8546 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Of course atheism is the default position. It is the default for every person and for every society.
Until a creed is, surreptitiously or forcibly, imposed on a child or, by sheer numbers, on a society, their world view is their initial un-influenced no god. Unfortunately, we do not live in a world where such freedom of thought is yet as widespread as it needs to be. If we can stop religion forcing itself on the kids and the world the default would take over and religion would all but disappear. In a global group of secular societies, with diligence, this can throw off the chains of religious thought in all humanity. Finally. Got a long way to go, though. Still a work in progress.Factio Republicana delenda est.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If we can stop religion forcing itself on the kids and the world the default would take over and religion would all but disappear. In a global group of secular societies, with diligence, this can throw off the chains of religious thought in all humanity. Finally. Got a long way to go, though. Still a work in progress. I see this paradigm a bit differently than you do. I realize that religion by definition is entirely human invented. Some semantics, though:
I would use the term "spiritual. I believe that there is One Spirit of Creativity and a host of imitators. I believe that freedom of speech allows for fair representation in a marketplace of ideas and should *not* be suppressed unless and until the product marketed is a proven harm to oneself and others. And this claim has not been conclusively demonstrated in all cases."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Yes it is - and you know it. For you and anybody else, the default is no leprechauns without evidence of leprechauns, no bigfeet without evidence of bigfeet and no gods without evidence of gods. The global default "position" (if there even was such a thing) is not atheism. Now, I personally think that bigfeet are quite possible and the only reason to think there are no bigfeet is that there is no solid evidence of bigfeet. Leprechauns are much less likely because of the magic angle and gods are even less likely than leprechauns because of the unfounded grandiose claims made about gods. YOUR god, in particular, is less likely than some other gods.
Phat writes:
There you go again, making empty assertions. If you're going to "slay a demon" at least TRY to put up an argument.
Lets slay that demon once and for all time. Phat writes:
I don't. I'm perfectly willing to accept a god or gods if they existed.
Many of you wish that were the case... Phat writes:
It's a done deal to date - no leprechauns, no bigfeet, no gods. There is a possibility that evidence will be discovered in our lifetime or after we are gone but the probability seems very low. ... but it is highly unlikely in our lifetimes."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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