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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 498 of 670 (877233)
06-08-2020 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Kleinman
06-08-2020 12:04 PM


Re: A Word on Impunity
Kleinman writes:
Percy writes:
One core point is that complaint systems do not work, especially for minorities:
If you are looking for someone to blame,
I wasn’t, but thank you for volunteering.
Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Kleinman, posted 06-08-2020 12:04 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by Kleinman, posted 06-09-2020 4:09 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 508 of 670 (877245)
06-09-2020 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 503 by Hyroglyphx
06-09-2020 10:57 AM


Re: Marquez Shooting Deliberation
Hyroglyphx writes:
The video does not appear to show that "she points the firearm directly at the officers."
It only showed the vantage point of one officer. There was another on the staircase. Look again.
This is false. It's a video. You can queue it up to the exact point in time where you think there is an officer on the staircase that she is aiming at. Go ahead and try to find that point in the video, then post it here queued up properly. You can find instructions on how to do that here: [youtube] dBCode Help
I don't know what it is with people seeing things in videos that simply aren't there. The same thing happened during the London Bridge discussion. There's no official report in sight. An inquest was begun on December 4, 2019, and then was adjourned with no resumption date specified. Maybe the narrative that most people seem to believe will stand up to scrutiny, maybe not, but I'm betting not, and the more time that passes with no official inquest even underway the more likely that seems.
I'm going to let the rest of your post stand as a testament to the attitudes that make interaction with modern law enforcement so dangerous.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 10:57 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 3:20 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 509 of 670 (877246)
06-09-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Hyroglyphx
06-09-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Protests
You're still backing the "bad apples" theory. George Floyd's death was a result of systemic racism, not bad apples. This is not a problem of bad apples. It is a problem of a bad system.
The officers you say were new to the job were not new to the job. They had been on the job for over a year but had just emerged from the required one year probationary period for all new officers.
Your mere mention of ANTIFA ("BLM are also rejecting ANTIFA") gives away exactly where you're coming from. Trumpublicans just march out the ANTIFA bogeyman whenever they want to falsely tar some one or some group. No one has any gauge on the degree of involvement of ANTIFA in the protests, least of all Trumpublicans who do not require facts when making pronouncements.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 11:32 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 3:40 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 510 of 670 (877250)
06-09-2020 2:30 PM


It Isn't Just When the Cameras Are On
N.Y.P.D. Officer Who Violently Shoved Protester Is Charged With Assault - The New York Times, announces a New York Times article. Here's a collection of videos of the incident:
The huge collection of videos of police abuse that have accumulated recently is just the tip of the iceberg. For every abuse caught on video there are probably ten or a hundred that are not. We mustn't forget that. The problem is systemic. Reallocating law enforcement funds to more appropriate avenues for dealing with the public is an approach to be seriously considered.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 523 of 670 (877964)
06-23-2020 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by Hyroglyphx
06-09-2020 3:20 PM


Re: Marquez Shooting Deliberation
Hyroglyphx writes:
This is false. It's a video. You can queue it up to the exact point in time where you think there is an officer on the staircase that she is aiming at. Go ahead and try to find that point in the video, then post it here queued up properly. You can find instructions on how to do that here: No YouTube URL Provided dBCode Help
You already queued it up for me...
Here's a frame from the video where the gun Marquez is holding is visible in the video. It's visible in several consecutive frames. There is no officer on the staircase:
I'm just trying to have a rational discussion with you based upon facts. You claimed the video showed Marquez pointing the gun at an officer on the staircase. There is no officer on the staircase. The video does not show what you claimed it did. If you modify your claim to something supported by the facts then we can discuss that.
It wouldn't matter with you anyhow.
Evidence always matter with me and should be the primary resource for any investigation by anyone.
You think cops are supposed to magically be able to have x-ray vision and know within a split second whether a gun is real or supposed to look real. You've also said elsewhere that cops shouldn't shoot unless they're being fired upon, which is an absurdity.
My main position is that most cops shouldn't have guns period, which solves the problem of cops seeing their guns as the solution to too many problems.
I don't know what it is with people seeing things in videos that simply aren't there.
Look in the mirror when you say that. Even people that hate guns had said, concerning the London Bridge incident, that if there were ever a justified shooting that that would be it.
You're using the Argumentum ad populum fallacy. A narrative many people like doesn't mean it's supported by the evidence, which it's not.
I'm going to let the rest of your post stand as a testament to the attitudes that make interaction with modern law enforcement so dangerous.
Meaning?
Meaning that the positions you stake out are a more accurate portrayal of your attitudes than your own claims about yourself.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 3:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 525 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-26-2020 11:05 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 524 of 670 (878228)
06-27-2020 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by Hyroglyphx
06-09-2020 3:40 PM


Re: Protests
Hyroglyphx writes:
You're still backing the "bad apples" theory. George Floyd's death was a result of systemic racism, not bad apples. This is not a problem of bad apples. It is a problem of a bad system.
The only sure evidence we have here is that Chauvin is a piece of shit who needs to be buried underneath the jail.
It's not a "bad apple" problem but a systemic problem.
I'm curious as to why you think it was racially motivated. I'm not saying it wasn't but what evidence is there to suggest that there was?
A much higher percentage of blacks get police attention or arrested. How much of that bump do you think represents racism?
My point is that when a black officer kills a black man there's not much media fanfare. When a white cop kills a white man there's not much media fanfare. When anybody kills a cop there's not a lot of fanfare. When a white cop kills a black man, there's always huge media coverage. And the implication is always that it was racially motivated.
This is just typical racist white grievance crap.
The officers you say were new to the job were not new to the job. They had been on the job for over a year but had just emerged from the required one year probationary period for all new officers.
Then indict them too.
Yes, a heavier hand, that will fix the problem.
I still think the best suggestion is to spread the many police responsibilities across other city departments where it makes more sense. Police should be conducting law enforcement, not wellness checks and so forth.
Your mere mention of ANTIFA ("BLM are also rejecting ANTIFA") gives away exactly where you're coming from. Trumpublicans just march out the ANTIFA bogeyman whenever they want to falsely tar some one or some group. No one has any gauge on the degree of involvement of ANTIFA in the protests, least of all Trumpublicans who do not require facts when making pronouncements.
I'm just telling you what I saw from firsthand experience, not a carefully constructed rage baiting narrative pumped over the airwaves nonstop. Almost no black protesters were engaged in rioting. But droves of little Antifa teenagers were very often stirring the pot -- staging rocks, bottles, flares, etc in innocent looking cement bags. They also created makeshift clubs and shields. The majority of black protesters kept urging them to stop because they feared that they would be blamed.
I think you're on a roll.
Antifa just two days ago set fire to a restaurant that they found out was catering to a local police department. Why? Because they're "boot lickers." This wasn't after hours either. This was during the day with innocent people who have nothing to do with sales working and could have been burned alive.
A lot of the protesters were also paid protesters. Can't tell you how many bragged about getting paid.
And it just keeps coming.
Do you have any actual evidence of this? Calling your account into question are articles like Federal Arrests Show No Sign That Antifa Plotted Protests - The New York Times and False stories about "paid protesters" spike again in effort to delegitimize Black Lives Matter protests.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 3:40 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-28-2020 1:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 536 of 670 (881996)
09-08-2020 9:14 AM


Yet Another
Police shootings have been so much in the news that I just ran out of time posting to this thread, but here's one for the ages:
This is yet another argument for defunding the police. That doesn't mean disbanding police forces. It means taking police funding for things like wellness calls and giving it to medical and mental health professionals. Men with guns and specialized training for handling dangerous situations should not be sent out on a mental health call.
Yet another town's insurance company will pay out millions. It's time for the insurance companies to defund the towns for episodes like this. When towns have to start paying for these lawsuits out of their own pockets forcing them to raise property taxes, maybe then something will be done.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 538 of 670 (882174)
09-14-2020 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by Hyroglyphx
07-26-2020 11:05 AM


Re: Marquez Shooting Deliberation
Hyroglyphx writes:
I'm just trying to have a rational discussion with you based upon facts. You claimed the video showed Marquez pointing the gun at an officer on the staircase. There is no officer on the staircase. The video does not show what you claimed it did. If you modify your claim to something supported by the facts then we can discuss that.
First of all, you selectively screenshot whatever frame suits you best, but even still there is clearly the officer with the rifle at the bottom of the stairs. You can even see the rifle underneath the Axon symbol of your own screenshot.
You're not even bothering to defend your claim. You're just making up more stuff.
You can't pull guns on officers. You can't point guns at officers or anywhere near the directions of officers. That you are somehow arguing the point is laughable.
Making up stories about what I'm arguing doesn't help you, either.
My main position is that most cops shouldn't have guns period, which solves the problem of cops seeing their guns as the solution to too many problems.
Then you wouldn't have anyway to stop violent things, Percy.
How many times are you going to ignore my actual position on this? Do I have to state it in full in every post to prevent you from ignoring it?
I mean honestly, let's say these were unarmed social workers and she pulls a gun on them. What's the next course of action? Well, 10 out of 10 times you call the police, but since in your scenario they are as ineffectual as everyone else, what then?
Do you really not recall the many times I've said *most* police shouldn't have guns. We're not having a discussion, we're just exchanging a series of posts where I have to keep reminding you of what I've actually said.
Obviously in cases requiring guns you call the police with the guns. Now that I've stated this yet again I assume you'll resume ignoring it.
Meaning that the positions you stake out are a more accurate portrayal of your attitudes than your own claims about yourself.
Same/Same
You possess an amazing lack of self-awareness.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-26-2020 11:05 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 11:30 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 539 of 670 (882247)
09-16-2020 9:51 AM


Breonna Taylor Settlement Announced
Louisville, Kentucky, will pay Breonna Taylor's family $12 million to settle her death at the hands of Louisville police while they executed a no-knock search warrant issued with insufficient and inaccurate information. The city has also committed to certain reforms, and they've already banned no-knock search warrants. (Louisville agrees to $12 million payout and policing changes in agreement with family of Breonna Taylor, killed in police raid)
Financial awards not previously announced in this thread:
  • Tamir Rice, a child gunned down by Cleveland police while carrying a toy gun that lacked the orange tab indicating a toy. $6 million.
  • Eric Garner, choked to death by a New York City policeman while being arrested for illegally selling cigarettes and who repeatedly yelled, "I can't breathe! I can't breath!" $5.9 million.
  • Armando Garcia, killed by a ricocheting bullet fired at a pit bull by LA County police. $3 million.
  • Margarita Brooks, killed by an LA County officer while firing at a pit bull. $3 million.
  • Dravon Ames, assaulted by Phoenix police after his 4-year old daughter stole a doll from a dollar store. $475,000.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 567 of 670 (882538)
09-27-2020 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by Hyroglyphx
07-28-2020 1:46 PM


Re: Protests
Hyroglyphx writes:
It's not a "bad apple" problem but a systemic problem.
Millions and millions and millions of police interactions annually. There's actually never been less police corruption than now because of the amount of oversight and the advent of the cellphone. That might be the biggest irony of it all.
It's systemic racism and brutality, not corruption. It's handing someone a hammer and asking him to perform surgery.
A much higher percentage of blacks get police attention or arrested. How much of that bump do you think represents racism?
I'm asking specific to Chauvin.
You're as ignorant of statistics as ever. That's like asking if a specific individual's cancer was caused by air pollution. I think explaining this to you is as hopeless a cause as it's ever been, but trying again anyway, the presence of racism increases the likelihood of racist acts. It doesn't tell you which acts were motivated by racism.
My point is, Chauvin may have been motivated by race and maybe he wasn't.
Everyone already knows this. See my previous paragraph.
I think it really detracts from the point to inject speculation into it. What we know is that Chauvin did something odious and he should pay for it.
What I said was:
quote:
It's not a "bad apple" problem but a systemic problem.
And:
quote:
A much higher percentage of blacks get police attention or arrested. How much of that bump do you think represents racism?
Nowhere did I "speculate" about Chauvin's racial attitudes. That's not a point I've made. You're off in the category of, "This invalid point is so easy to rebut that I shall inject it into the discussion myself."
This is just typical racist white grievance crap.
Is it?
Yes, it is. The fallacy of your argument would be clear to you if you understood statistics.
Or is it the truth? You think CNN gives a flying fuck about George Floyd? George Floyd is ratings on steroids. CNN has all the impetus in the world to paint everything in divisive terms... Pure rage bait... and they've got you hook, line and sinker.
So you think that if it weren't for CNN nobody would have ever heard of George Floyd? You think police misconduct isn't news?
Your mere mention of ANTIFA ("BLM are also rejecting ANTIFA") gives away exactly where you're coming from. Trumpublicans just march out the ANTIFA bogeyman whenever they want to falsely tar some one or some group.
It's a fact that you're not willing to accept. Little white suburban kids who have been pumped full of Marxist ideology for years are using BLM as a platform. They speak on behalf of black people when not asked to, they control the conversation when not asked to, and use it to sow as much discord as possible.
Do you really believe the crap you're spewing?
Since you believe that media coverage is the only metric for knowing what's happening in the world,...
You have a habit of putting your words in other people's mouths, but highly respected news media who have built their reputations over generations is the most reliable way to learn what's going on in the world. If you're not getting your information from news media outlets then where are you getting it? Facebook? Twitter?
...probably because you're so geographically disconnected from it,...
You do realize, I hope, that you're equally "geographically disconnected."
How do these support your position that Antifa is playing any meaningful role, or rebut the fact that they're just a marginal group getting a lot of press because Trump keeps accusing them of being behind recent unrest associated with protests? You cited an oped piece, an article from the state-run news outlet of Turkey, a news article enumerating what's being investigated, a news article that contradicts your position, another news article that requires registration to read, and an article from the British tabloid The Mirror.
Not only that but there wasn't a single respected source among them, such as The BBC, The New Yorker, AP, Reuters, Bloomberg News, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, etc.
Bottom line: There is no actual evidence of widespread Antifa-caused unrest. They're a fringe group with little power or influence who no one here supports anyway. You're just buying Trump propaganda hook, line and sinker. I guess we know your "news source" now.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-28-2020 1:46 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-28-2020 11:50 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 568 of 670 (882539)
09-27-2020 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by Hyroglyphx
07-30-2020 10:23 AM


Re: Protests
Hyroglyphx writes:
Most agencies though have enormous incentive to root out shitty officers. Shitty officers erode public trust and they're horribly expensive in the form of lawsuits.
You're still on your "bad apple" kick. The problem isn't bad apples. The problem is systemic. The problem is an environment that encourages the dehumanization of people not like the white majority.
You also have to understand the resentment that all police officers have for Derek Chauvin.
Except that "all police officers" do not resent Derek Chauvin. And BLM is getting increasing pushback from the paler portions of our citizenry.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-30-2020 10:23 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-27-2020 8:16 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 569 of 670 (882540)
09-27-2020 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by PaulK
08-28-2020 3:52 PM


Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
PaulK writes:
Defunding the police might not be the right idea, but it looks like something drastic is needed to deal with the ongoing corruption.
In case some don't know what "defunding the police" means, it isn't intended to be taken literally. It refers to taking the funding police are given to handle non-police activities, such as mental health interventions, lost children, wellness checks, etc., and giving it to agencies better trained and equipped to deal with them.
It doesn't matter how much training you provide the police. No one can master all the disparate responsibilities many policemen are routinely handed.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2020 3:52 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 574 of 670 (882551)
09-28-2020 1:27 PM


Police Settlement of $20M in William Green Murder
Father of two William Green was shot seven times in the back while handcuffed and sitting in a police cruiser by officer Michael A. Own Jr., resulting in his death. Prince George's County will pay Green's family $20 million, possibly the largest settlement ever for a murder by police. Both Green and Owen are black.
Family of man slain by Prince George’s police officer reaches $20 million settlement
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 575 of 670 (882552)
09-28-2020 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Hyroglyphx
09-23-2020 11:09 AM


Re: Jacob Blake handcuffed to his hospital bed ???
Hyroglyphx writes:
Paralysed Jacob Blake 'handcuffed to hospital bed'
For the love of god what is wrong with the police over there ?
Are the police doctors? Can they confirm with certainty that he is paralyzed? Is it possible to suffer temporary paralysis to later regain total or partial function? Yes. Is it possible to feign paralysis to escape? Yes, it is.
Blake had been shot seven times. Criminal and civil suits will take into account not only the shooting but also Blake's subsequent treatment. You know nothing of Kenosha, Wisconsin, police nor of Blake, yet you are automatically biased in favor of the police into believing the shooting was justified and that Blake, whose three sons were in the back seat of his SUV when he was shot, was both capable of flight and a flight risk. Way to be objective.
There was a prisoner a few years ago who was in custody at the Travis County Jail who threw himself down some stairs and faked as if he was paralyzed. Fooled everyone. The jail nurses, doctors,...
This is obvious bullshit. There are nerve points familiar to any medical professional that when tapped cause involuntary muscle contractions, the point just below the knee being familiar to everyone. The prisoner did not fool nurses and doctors. Why don't you put a name to your claim so we verify the veracity of your account. So far it's got all the credibility of one of Trump's, "Everyone's saying..."
So, tell me, what is so odious about handcuffing Jacob Blake that it requires your incredulous post?
Uh, he was shot seven times? You're beginning to sound like some kind of monster.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 11:09 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-28-2020 2:55 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 577 of 670 (882555)
09-28-2020 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Hyroglyphx
09-23-2020 11:30 AM


Re: Marquez Shooting Deliberation
Now you're just pretending you made some claim that was supported by the video when it wasn't. Here once again is a still frame from that part of the video where in Message 503 you claim it shows Marquez pointing the gun at an officer on the staircase:
Hyroglyphx writes:
It only showed the vantage point of one officer. There was another on the staircase. Look again.
Where in this image do you see an officer on the staircase:
It's a simple question whose answer supports the fact that your claims are constantly full of blatant errors. You believe what you believe, and you'll claim whatever "facts" are necessary to support your beliefs without regard to reality.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2020 11:30 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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