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Member (Idle past 498 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Not everything is logical. The religionists have no answer, but it makes no difference to their belief. Belief is impervious to logic. And as an aside, I know you think I am depriving myself of a useful life by insisting on pushing these arguments. I appreciate your concern. Im not as whacky in everyday life as I am on this Forum. Thanks for caring, however. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Phat writes: Not everything is logical. Philosophical arguments are logical or they're nothing. The problem of suffering is a logical argument that you - or any other religionist - has no answer to. You can not explain why a god that loves you also tortures you both in this life and potentially in the next. But, as I say, your beliefs are not rational so why let a little paradox like that worry you? Your beliefs are not founded on reason so it is unlikely that reason will change your mind.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nonsense. Just the other day I showed you that your apologist was lying through his teeth. I quoted the Bible and I quoted where he directly contradicted it. And no response from you.
The point is that none of you have refuted much of anything. Phat writes:
See above. You're ignoring the evidence.
All you have done is set the ground rules that I must present verifiable evidence. Phat writes:
That isn't the issue here.
Science will never prove that God exists. Phat writes:
Logic is logic. You don't get to make up your own. I have SHOWED you the logic - see above - and you ignore it.
Just because you were dumb enough to drop your belief does not mean that you can insist that I follow the same path of "logic" that duped you into dropping yours. Phat writes:
As I keep telling you, I have seen stuff too that I can't explain. Not being able to explain something is not an excuse for making up a bullshit explanation. And it is certainly no excuse for clinging to the bullshit in spite of being shown that it's bullshit. there are some who I consider legit that have seen and done stuff that you would consider impossible barring evidence. Why can't you just admit that you don't know?
Phat writes:
I DON'T shut off the miraculous from consideration. I just don't jump to the conclusion of miraculous. The fact that you shut the miraculous off from consideration is your fault---not mine."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Science will never prove that God exists. You've been around these parts long enough to know that science never proves anything. It only weighs the evidence. And on that score ALL the evidence, with none opposed, considers your god, and all gods, as tales of ancient myths and have no discernable influence in this universe.
The fact that you shut the miraculous off from consideration is your fault---not mine. Oh pray tell, what "miraculous" anything, anywhere, anytime, can you show us any evidence of happening? I want to see this "miraculous" and its evidence. Show me. Factio Republicana delenda est.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member
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How can a good, all-powerful God tolerate evil? If he can’t stop evil from happening, he can’t be truly all-powerful. But if he is all-powerful and is not inclined to stop the evil persisting on earth, how can he be all-good? This is commonly known as the Problem of Evil and still puzzles a lot of people. Presumably since everything comes from God, so does evil. Even the bible itself concedes that, but apologists can't seem to grasp the concept.
quote: I suppose it is conceivable that is the absence of good as a frame of reference just as darkness contrasts light -- one would be meaningless without the other, which makes it a requirement to allow the existence of evil. Its also conceivable that God will grant people the ability to fall so as to not conflict with their ability to make freewill choices. Of course, this is where the real slippery slope comes into play. If god is omniscient and already knows the fate of every single human soul, and yet he set the entire thing in motion, then the fate of human beings is all but predetermined. If that is the case, then freewill is merely an illusion. "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You really need to let go of that word.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Looking at my Message 454 what word are you suggesting I let go?
I can understand "evidence" being a big pain in the ass for you since you have none and we have it all but I'm not clear to what specific word you refer.
The fact that you shut the miraculous off from consideration is your fault---not mine. You still need to show us these "miraculous" things you think need to be considered. Got any facts to go with your miracles?Factio Republicana delenda est.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Or any evidence what is marketed as a "miracle" actually is miraculous.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: You know the word is evidence. And its not true that you guys in any way have it all and that I have none. And that even assumes that physical evidence is even possible in this day and age (regarding Gods existence) I can understand "evidence" being a big pain in the ass for you since you have none and we have it all but I'm not clear to what specific word you refer. Edited by Phat, : removed cussing. I'm keeping my "demon" in check."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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And its not true that you guys in any way have it all and that I have none. Yeah, it is. The evidence you THINK you have involves a hand-scratched and much embellished compendium of ancient myths with zero confidence in their authorship/legitimacy/efficacy and more centers on your emotional feelings, wants, desires and wishful thinking. We have gone years round and round on your evidence and your need (your insistence, your demand) that your emotional whims and deepest feelings be seen on the same level of evidence with demonstrable scientific fact because you have none of the latter. Such is rejected as evidence because these are apt to change day to day for no other reason than a spike in your blood sugar level. If there is anything else more substantial to your "evidence" then, after all these decades of dickin' around, produce it. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Factio Republicana delenda est.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AZ writes: Maybe you just think that you are spook-free. If I were a 5000 year old disembodied personality in search of a host, what better candidate than an educated and somewhat wise liberally minded mature man from the pagan haunts of Arizona? He wouldn't even believe that I exist (nor my Boss nor his Boss) he is a strong anti-theist, and he sees the handwriting on the wall regarding the inevitability of global warming and the worst behavior of humans.
Still took a few months to come completely out of the closet and become the annoying atheist I am today but I've been spook/ghost-free, conscience-clear and firmly embedded in reality (except for the occasional chemical-induced side trip) ever since. disembodied personality in search of host writes: My job is to keep him fighting the Christians. He seems too nice to Phat, though. I need to get together with Phats demon to see if we can keep them hating each other. Edited by Phat, : attributing demon with hypothetical argument"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Maybe you just think that you are spook-free. Oh, I know I am. I have proof. The archbishop, John Wester, of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, which covers catholic church operations in my area, has a protection order out against me requiring I stay more that 1000 ft from any structure owned or operated by the Archdiocese if that structure contains any statues or stained-glass windows. The problem is that when I enter such a place all the statues get up screaming and crash through the stained-glass windows to get away. It was costing the archdiocese a fortune in replacements every time I went to a wedding or a funeral. So, now I can't go. If I were not demon free the statues would recognize my fellow traveler as one of their own and not freak out. At least that's what the exorcists tell me. There is nothing there to exorcise. I, myself, am the power of reality, able to vanquish to oblivion any gods or demons with just a mere thought and that really scares the b'jesus out of the statues. I was pissed a while ago, can't remember why, but just for the relief I drove up to the front door of a church one night and just parked there listening in delight to the screams and crashing coming from inside. Best part was watching mother mary in her white gown and blue shawl screaming her own Hail Marys while high-steppin' it high speed through the planting beds scattered throughout the parking lot. Glorious. I did promise to not do that though. Now I'm feeling guilty. I am a bad non-demon.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AZ writes: I certainly wouldn't say that I have zero confidence in the likelihood of something behind the stories, traditions, and experiences of the Holy Spiritually minded. We are a bit exclusivist, but only because we believe that those of you who have bought into spiritual inclusivity and relative equivalence among religions and"spirits" are in error. I can't speak for all of *us* but I think that our budding Pastor, Raphael, has a lot of love for the rest of society that does not attend any church. (I'll let him speak for himself, though ) I DO think that religion and spirituality are here to stay as our planet and our global population moves into a critical time and challenge. There are a lot of people on this rock. Somehow, we all need to find a way to live and let live. GOD if God exists does not want us fighting each other. The demons surely do. (If they exist) And I think that your disdain for organized religion won't help you in the long run. If times get tough, more people will turn to religion during the lean times. It is in my opinion inevitable. The evidence you THINK you have involves a hand-scratched and much-embellished compendium of ancient myths with zero confidence in their authorship/legitimacy/efficacy and more centers on your emotional feelings, wants, desires, and wishful thinking. Edited by Phat, : spelling"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: I think that our budding Pastor, Raphael, has a lot of love for the rest of society that does not attend any church. You're going to be really obsequious with your new guru aren't you?
I DO think that religion and spirituality are here to stay as our planet and our global population moves into a critical time and challenge. Doom doom!
If times get tough,
Doom!
It is in my opinion inevitable. Just wishful thinking Phat.
more people will turn to religion during the lean times. Except exactly the opposite is happening. I'm sure you guys prayed for deliverance from the virus but it was the vaccine that is doing the job. I'm afraid like all your apocalyptical dreams it ain't going to happen. Just like Faith you're desperate for it aren't you? Begging for it. Why Phat? You're going to wet yourself talking to your new apologist.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Hardly.
You're going to be really obsequious with your new guru aren't you?quote:Just so everyone knows, I have known Raphael in an internet conversational sort of way since he was just out of High School. I think that *you* think that I will treat Raphael the same way I responded to ICANT in Message 1"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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