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Author Topic:   Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 316 of 327 (882471)
09-24-2020 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
09-23-2020 1:13 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Phat writes:

the authors had no concept of a universal Creator or of anything other than the ground they walked on.


So why are YOU so much more enlightened than they were? You take it for granted that YOU are inspired by God. Why couldn't the writers of Genesis be inspired too? Why are YOU right and they are wrong?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 09-23-2020 1:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Phat, posted 09-30-2020 8:10 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 317 of 327 (882473)
09-24-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
09-23-2020 6:55 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Phat writes:

I and 2 others heard voices from nowhere coming out in the air.


The more often you tell a story, the more it gets reinforced in your memory. I'm sure your story is clearer in your mind every day.

And so are the stories of the other two witnesses. But it's almost certain that their stories are different from yours. and the clearer your memory gets, the more it will diverge from the other witnesses' memories.

Phat writes:

We were in a controlled environment (my apartment).


That's not a controlled environment.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 09-23-2020 6:55 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 318 of 327 (882474)
09-24-2020 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Phat
09-24-2020 10:46 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Phat writes:

Of course to a relativist, if everyone has a"God"in their own head...we all are sinning against GOD.


Does that remind you of anything? have you heard the idea that "we all are sinning against GOD" anywhere else?

I have:

quote:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So the "relativists" and the Bible agree.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 09-24-2020 10:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1164
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.9


(2)
Message 319 of 327 (882477)
09-24-2020 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Phat
09-23-2020 2:57 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
So I would take several opposing concepts from scripture. Light & Dark or Visible & Invisible, for example.
And I would use them to make a point which encourages free associative type thinking. This differs from Science in that its not objectively factual...and my critics may charge me with being dishonest through making stuff up.

My response is that what they teach only reinforces doubt. I market certainty in Jesus Christ.
They charge me with "making God up". I'm starting to think that it is useless to attempt to disprove this notion.


I think a few concepts are being mixed up here and in other posts, especially the idea of "relativist". The people you are calling "relativist" are really either just stating how your conclusion can't really be drawn from inter-subjectively accessible evidence. There's a difference between that and relativism.

Relativism to me would me something along the lines of Ganesh is literally real to Hindus while Thor is literally real to Scandinavians and so on, i.e. that multiple mutually contradictory theological metaphysical views are simultaneously true each within their culture. It could also mean they are each of equal cultural value.

However people here aren't really discussing either of those possibilities. They're simply saying how for the external observer there's nothing outside of personal testimony for each of these gods.

Imagine I lived on an island and had scanned the horizon never seeing another landmass multiple times. One day I meet some people who each say they have in fact sailed out there. One says he saw another island, another saw a monster, another saw a floating city and so on. They all have nothing to corroborate this. It's not relativism to say "Sorry guys, I can't accept any of this".

Even if we imagine you are correct none of this would be relativism. It would just be not believing due to the lack of sufficiently convincing evidence.

Beyond this I would say two things:
(a) As far as I can see from commentaries on the original Hebrew, the Bible isn't really monotheistic. Yahweh says he will punish the gods of Egypt, the Psalms say he will punish others in the divine council, even calling these others "gods".
(b) The phrase "marketing certainty in Jesus Christ" is an interesting example of cultural differences. Again my main exposure to religion is Irish Catholicism to which phrases like this would be kind of alien. First of all because being certain in your faith is not as stressed here, in fact doubt is a big part of being Catholic here, it's supposed to be present as part of faith. Also the use of words like "marketing" would be seen as inappropriate as such since it applies mundane concepts to the transcendent. Not that this makes Irish Catholicism likely in any sense just that I want to emphasise that confining the debate to:
19th Century Science inspired materialist Atheism vs Post-Enlightenment American Evangelical Protestantism
creates a very distorted view of both the religious and scientific.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Phat, posted 09-23-2020 2:57 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Fuckdamods 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 320 of 327 (882526)
09-27-2020 11:41 AM


What is this

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 09-27-2020 12:58 PM Fuckdamods has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 321 of 327 (882529)
09-27-2020 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Fuckdamods
09-27-2020 11:41 AM


Musings or Amusement?
What is what?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Fuckdamods, posted 09-27-2020 11:41 AM Fuckdamods has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 322 of 327 (882594)
09-30-2020 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by ringo
09-24-2020 12:22 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Well now, thats a good question that I need to ask myself and pray about.

Whats that you say? Evidence needs to be evident for eveerybody in the room? What is it that makes global consensus and agreement concerning evidence (on the topic of religion vs no religion and early understanding of god vs later understanding of evolved "reality" and these "Theological things?)


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by ringo, posted 09-24-2020 12:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by ringo, posted 09-30-2020 12:27 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 323 of 327 (882601)
09-30-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Phat
09-30-2020 8:10 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Phat writes:

Whats that you say? Evidence needs to be evident for eveerybody in the room?


Everybody in EVERY room.

Phat writes:

What is it that makes global consensus and agreement concerning evidence (on the topic of religion vs no religion and early understanding of god vs later understanding of evolved "reality" and these "Theological things?)


The "global consesnsus" is that there is no evidence of gods. You may think you have "evidence" for YOUR god but people who believe in different gods don't accept your "evidence", so it isn't evidence.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Phat, posted 09-30-2020 8:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 09-30-2020 8:44 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 324 of 327 (882610)
09-30-2020 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by ringo
09-30-2020 12:27 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
ringo writes:

The "global consesnsus" is that there is no evidence of gods.

The global default "position" (if there even was such a thing) is not atheism. Lets slay that demon once and for all time.

Many of you wish that were the case, but it is highly unlikely in our lifetimes.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by ringo, posted 09-30-2020 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by AZPaul3, posted 09-30-2020 9:57 PM Phat has responded
 Message 327 by ringo, posted 10-01-2020 12:21 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5367
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 325 of 327 (882611)
09-30-2020 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Phat
09-30-2020 8:44 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Of course atheism is the default position. It is the default for every person and for every society.

Until a creed is, surreptitiously or forcibly, imposed on a child or, by sheer numbers, on a society, their world view is their initial un-influenced “no god”. Unfortunately, we do not live in a world where such freedom of thought is yet as widespread as it needs to be.

If we can stop religion forcing itself on the kids and the world the default would take over and religion would all but disappear. In a global group of secular societies, with diligence, this can throw off the chains of religious thought in all humanity. Finally.

Got a long way to go, though. Still a work in progress.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 09-30-2020 8:44 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 09-30-2020 11:47 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 326 of 327 (882612)
09-30-2020 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by AZPaul3
09-30-2020 9:57 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
If we can stop religion forcing itself on the kids and the world the default would take over and religion would all but disappear. In a global group of secular societies, with diligence, this can throw off the chains of religious thought in all humanity. Finally.

Got a long way to go, though. Still a work in progress.

I see this paradigm a bit differently than you do. I realize that religion by definition is entirely human invented. Some semantics, though:

  • If we can stop religion forcing itself on the kids and the world ...How can a word force "itself" on anything? And if the "default" is secularism, why do we need to legislate or "force" what can be taught? That to me is as much of a control issue through limitation as it is through proselyting.

    I would use the term "spiritual. I believe that there is One Spirit of Creativity and a host of imitators. I believe that freedom of speech allows for fair representation in a marketplace of ideas and should *not* be suppressed unless and until the product marketed is a proven harm to oneself and others. And this claim has not been conclusively demonstrated in all cases.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 325 by AZPaul3, posted 09-30-2020 9:57 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18796
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 327 of 327 (882614)
    10-01-2020 12:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 324 by Phat
    09-30-2020 8:44 PM


    Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
    Phat writes:

    The global default "position" (if there even was such a thing) is not atheism.


    Yes it is - and you know it. For you and anybody else, the default is no leprechauns without evidence of leprechauns, no bigfeet without evidence of bigfeet and no gods without evidence of gods.

    Now, I personally think that bigfeet are quite possible and the only reason to think there are no bigfeet is that there is no solid evidence of bigfeet. Leprechauns are much less likely because of the magic angle and gods are even less likely than leprechauns because of the unfounded grandiose claims made about gods. YOUR god, in particular, is less likely than some other gods.

    Phat writes:

    Lets slay that demon once and for all time.


    There you go again, making empty assertions. If you're going to "slay a demon" at least TRY to put up an argument.

    Phat writes:

    Many of you wish that were the case...


    I don't. I'm perfectly willing to accept a god or gods if they existed.

    Phat writes:

    ... but it is highly unlikely in our lifetimes.


    It's a done deal to date - no leprechauns, no bigfeet, no gods. There is a possibility that evidence will be discovered in our lifetime or after we are gone but the probability seems very low.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 324 by Phat, posted 09-30-2020 8:44 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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