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Author Topic:   Finding God In The Waves
Phat
Member
Posts: 15101
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 105 (883281)
11-25-2020 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by dwise1
10-18-2020 2:56 AM


Re: Learning From Others
dwise1 writes:

Therefore, whenever a theist starts talking about "having been an atheist", our first order of business is to find out just what the hell he's talking about. And until we are able to get that answer, the most probable outcome will be that the theist making that claim just has no clue what he's talking about. Kind of like if Trump or his WH makes any kind of statement, the probability that that statement is false is far greater than that it might be true.

Interesting post, David. I always like how you go into so much detail and thoroughly explain your perspective!

So let me get this straight.

I understand that many "believers" find it incredulous how one of our own could later become an atheist.

Now I'm hearing from an actual atheist who finds it incredulous that one of his own could later become a believer! Is this about right?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by dwise1, posted 10-18-2020 2:56 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18930
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 92 of 105 (883304)
11-26-2020 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
11-25-2020 2:19 PM


Re: Critical Analysis of this books CONTENT
Phat writes:

My point is that they all saw the same event.


And your point is wrong. The same event happened - if indeed anything happened at all - but what the witnesses saw was in their individual minds. Which is why they all have different stories.

Phat writes:

There is One Spirit, not "many". To say there are many is to peddle a lie.

The snake started this lie by saying ye shall be as gods. There is only One.


That's a totally empty claim. it has no basis whatsoever in reality.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 11-25-2020 2:19 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 11-26-2020 3:25 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33251
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 93 of 105 (883308)
11-26-2020 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
11-26-2020 11:41 AM


Re: Critical Analysis of this books CONTENT
Phat refuses to actually read the Bible, even when the wording is presented to him.

Phat writes:

There is One Spirit, not "many". To say there are many is to peddle a lie.

The snake started this lie by saying ye shall be as gods. There is only One.

quote:
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The source is NOT the snake.

One of US, not another of me.

Us is a first person plural pronoun.

Plural means more than one member of the specific set.

It really is that simple. The writers of much of the Bible were never monotheists and that is repeated over and over and over again.

I am the Lord, thy God.

I am a jealous God.

You shall have no other Gods before me.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 11-26-2020 11:41 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 11-27-2020 1:48 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15101
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 105 (883309)
11-27-2020 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
11-26-2020 3:25 PM


How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
jar writes:

Plural means more than one member of the specific set.

It really is that simple. The writers of much of the Bible were never monotheists

Learn to think intuitively, jar. Throw away your critical thinking evidence based limitations that prevent you from knowing God.
The set which is referred...the US...is the heavenly hosts. This set includes both Gods angels and the fallen angels. All of these spiritual Beings are aware of good and evil. 11/3 of the angels defected. The fact is that we are in a universal spiritual war. The prize is your soul, ringos soul, my soul, in fact ALL human souls.
The LIE is that we should throw away our understanding of God as a knowable Deity and begin to see Him as a human creation...a tale told through books...where one mans Loki is another mans Jesus. The TRUTH is that there is ONE GOD manifested in THREE ways...and it aint rocket science. Thje Creator of all seen and unseen did in fact becomne human for the very purpose of communion and relationship with us..(yes us...the human animal) and the knowledge of good and evil was known by US (yes us meaning the heavenly realm.) You and ringo are false teachers precisely because you teach that any and all gods we talk about are CREATIONS of the human mind.

But then you will deny the God Whom created you. You will claim to be Christian because you belong to a club where grown men wear fancy costumes. You will claim that your club is far older than MY club, but I will retort that MY God is far older than your intelligence and that of the human collective.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 11-26-2020 3:25 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 11-27-2020 7:00 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33251
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 95 of 105 (883313)
11-27-2020 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
11-27-2020 1:48 AM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
That, you can make all the claims that you want but can never support them with evidence or reasoned arguments.

It really is that simple.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 11-27-2020 1:48 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 11-27-2020 7:14 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15101
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 105 (883314)
11-27-2020 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
11-27-2020 7:00 AM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
How would one go about explaining (un)explainable events? I have seen enough subjective evidence to believe that God as I understand Him is real and so are demons, but I have no way of presenting this as an objective argument.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 11-27-2020 7:00 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2020 8:29 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 98 by jar, posted 11-27-2020 8:58 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8087
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 97 of 105 (883315)
11-27-2020 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
11-27-2020 7:14 AM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
Phat writes:

How would one go about explaining (un)explainable events?

You investigate them. If the answer is not immediately obvious, you say that you don't know and carry on investigating. What you don't do is claim godidit and abandon real explanations.

The majority of what religionists claim as inexplicable events have perfectly natural explanations. The rest are simply delusions.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 11-27-2020 7:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33251
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 98 of 105 (883316)
11-27-2020 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
11-27-2020 7:14 AM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
Phat writes:

How would one go about explaining (un)explainable events? I have seen enough subjective evidence to believe that God as I understand Him is real and so are demons, but I have no way of presenting this as an objective argument.

You look at the evidence.

What does the evidence show?

The objective rather than subjective evidence is that there is no consistent universal subjective evidence of any god but rather subjective evidence of literally millions of different gods.

Since ALL of the objective evidence does show that either there are literally millions of different gods or there is no way to decide if any one or more of them actually exists.

You then accept the fact that so far there is no way to know whether there are literally millions of different gods or there is no way to decide if any one or more of them actually exists and so stop trying to pretend you do know.

Next you create a box called "unexplained" and you throw your demons and events and incidents and folktales in the "Unexplained Box".

Phat, Objective Evidence always trumps subjective evidence.

Thinking that there really are demons is just another playground copout, a way to place the blame somewhere other than ourselves.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 11-27-2020 7:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 11-27-2020 4:50 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15101
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 99 of 105 (883320)
11-27-2020 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by jar
11-27-2020 8:58 AM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
jar writes:

Since ALL of the objective evidence does show that either there are literally millions of different gods or there is no way to decide if any one or more of them actually exists.

I disagree. There is only One God. the other "gods" are not Deities...they are created by the One God. You are correct that there is no objective method thus far to prove this, but it is my understanding that people do not believe based on objectivity anyway. If God had wanted it that way then everyone would believe just as most people now believe (and can prove) that the world is round. We still have flat earth denialists, but they are few and far between. You will likely ask me how I know this to be true and accuse me of making up my God. You have said before that you would laugh at the God of Biblical Christians...many whom describe the same God. You must have NEVER trusted them. You were taught to think and be skeptical at a young age. I could say...as Jesus once did...that flesh and blood(and objective evidence) has not revealed this to me, but at best it would get a laugh.

You tell me to learn to think, but if thinking turned me as skeptical as you, I would prefer to do without it. There are many people who need to know what I teach and far fewer who would benefit from what you teach. I still like you though.

Edited by Phat, : i gotta get out of here!


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 11-27-2020 8:58 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 11-27-2020 6:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33251
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 100 of 105 (883321)
11-27-2020 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
11-27-2020 4:50 PM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
Phat writes:

I disagree. There is only One God. the other "gods" are not Deities...they are created by the One God.

LOL

Too funny.

Phat you do realize that the Muslim says the same thing and that what you worship is just a demon?

Phat writes:

You have said before that you would laugh at the God of Biblical Christians...many whom describe the same God.

Phat, even the people that wrote the stories in the Bible did not describe one God. The God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 are mutually exclusive.

Phat writes:

You tell me to learn to think, but if thinking turned me as skeptical as you, I would prefer to do without it.

Exactly Phat. You want and need the God you have created and lots of others also want and need the god they create. You want God to be the way it works best for you; your own little servant.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 11-27-2020 4:50 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 11-28-2020 12:25 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15101
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 105 (883323)
11-28-2020 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by jar
11-27-2020 6:13 PM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
Why is it unreasonable to assume that One God is likely? Why is it unreasonable to think that someone...some group....has it nearly right? Why cant that just happen to be the One we worship? Why do you treat the idea like a chance?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 11-27-2020 6:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2020 3:04 AM Phat has responded
 Message 105 by jar, posted 11-28-2020 7:37 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8087
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 102 of 105 (883324)
11-28-2020 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
11-28-2020 12:25 AM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
Phat writes:

Why is it unreasonable to assume that One God is likely? Why is it unreasonable to think that someone...some group....has it nearly right? Why cant that just happen to be the One we worship? Why do you treat the idea like a chance?

Because the only reason you believe what you believe is because you were born to a culture and at a time that has that belief.

That is pure chance.

Born anytime before AD30 and you're in hell. Born anywhere where a different belief is prevalent and you're going to hell. Born to parents of a different belief and it's highly probable that you're going to hell.

For a gambling man Phat, the odds are against you.

And, of course, no loving god would behave in that random and cruel way.

It's just your crazy fundie mind.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 11-28-2020 12:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 11-28-2020 5:46 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15101
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 105 (883325)
11-28-2020 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Tangle
11-28-2020 3:04 AM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
Good morning O Tangled One. You know, I was prepared to argue against you yet again but by chance (of course! What else could it be? ) I saw this video. The guy states your basic argument perfectly! It is indeed food for thought for me.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2020 3:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2020 6:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8087
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 104 of 105 (883326)
11-28-2020 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
11-28-2020 5:46 AM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
Phat writes:

It is indeed food for thought for me.

I've been making that argument with you for years. Literally. The trouble is, if we're both still here next year I'll make it again and you hear it again for the first time.

Like all the others, they just wash straight off.

You're groundhog day.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 11-28-2020 5:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33251
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 105 of 105 (883327)
11-28-2020 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
11-28-2020 12:25 AM


Re: How Can One PROVE The Unexplainable?
As Tangle pointed out the reason you are a Christian is because you were born into a Christian dominated society.

But wait, there's more.

You are not claiming that Christianity is the one true religion but rather YOUR Christianity is the One True Religion and YOUR God is the One True and only God.

You bought a lottery ticket Phat. You are sure YOUR lottery ticket is the winning one. But reality says that in many if not most cases none of the lottery tickets purchased are the right one.

But unlike many if not most lotteries when you find out your ticket is NOT a winner you do not get to simply buy another he next week.

Phat writes:

Why is it unreasonable to assume that One God is likely? Why is it unreasonable to think that someone...some group....has it nearly right? Why cant that just happen to be the One we worship? Why do you treat the idea like a chance?

I treat what you do like folk that buy lottery tickets because it is simply another lottery ticket. You are taking a chance and hoping to win some prize when what Jesus taught was that the goal is to do now.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 11-28-2020 12:25 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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