Church History In Plain Language (4th edition)

I wanted to move the off topic posts from Microbes found in Meteors over to this topic...as they will be on-topic here.

I am reading an informative new book!
(Rather I am listening to it on Audible but I also purchased on Kindle so I can read it as well as listen to it. )
It is high time that I stopped listening to jars critically thought-out yet uninspired explanations regarding Christianity and Church History! I honestly feel that jar lacks spiritual inspiration and after perusing several authors I concluded that Bruce Shelley is a qualified scholar who appears to be an equal to jars scholarly approach in every way. That being said, lets bring my off topic posts and your responses here to hash out. (If anybody else has heard of this book or this author feel free to elaborate within this topic. )

jar writes: Tangle pointed out the reason you are a Christian is because you were born into a Christian dominated society.

This is true by and large, but I argue that some Christians become Christian Believers through being transformed in their minds rather than simply culturally indoctrinated.

If Jesus were simply human while on earth then there would be no transformation of any individual through encountering him while he was alive or encountering the mysterious Holy Spirit(Holy Ghost) after Jesus was raised.
Note that there were many transformed individuals as well as many who remained unaffected (apparently unconvinced...either willfully or unknowingly;they would fit in well with the crowd of skeptics at this Forum) Shelley explains the nuances of church history thoroughly.

If Jesus were simply human while on earth then there would be no transformation of any individual through encountering him while he was alive or encountering the mysterious Holy Spirit(Holy Ghost) after Jesus was raised.

This seems like a huge leap to a conclusion not supported by any evidence.

phat writes: If Jesus were simply human while on earth then there would be no transformation of any individual through encountering him while he was alive or encountering the mysterious Holy Spirit(Holy Ghost) after Jesus was raised.

nwr writes: This seems like a huge leap to a conclusion not supported by any evidence.

OK, perhaps. What I am saying is that if Jesus were simply human, where did the miracles, healing and deliverance come from? I believe that there is a spiritual realm, but there is truth(Holy Spirit) and counterfeit(other spirits and phenomena. The spirit is not relative.

And just how would we ever find objective evidence of a spiritual event?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

From Message 21

ringo writes: I have as much "subjective experience" of the Holy Spirit as you do.

Is so, why do you question it and go so far as to doubt it? Shelley teaches us what the book says and what the early church did and how they behaved.

We see a clear difference between "believers" (those touched by Jesus) and the clueless masses, which we still have today. So what made you so willfully clueless in light of your subjective experience?

ringo writes: I refuse to jump to conclusions like you do.

Indeed. Yet you *do* jump to the conclusion that God does not exist. That Jesus was an amalgamation of several stories and myths. That all gods are essentially the same. So yes...yes you do conclude.

ringo writes: And yet you have no argument against it. All you have is denial.

The story speaks for itself. Demons were cast out. People were healed. Lives were changed. What more do you want?

ringo writes: But it isn't *my* understanding. It's collective understanding.

According to the Bible, the majority of humanity will deny that the Spirit is real. They prefer their own biological animal feelings over anything that may actually change and transform them for the better.

Phat,addressing jar writes: You have no belief nor subjective evidence of the Holy Spirit. Yet the Holy Spirit *is* reality. Not that you will ever see it.

jar writes: If that were true Phat you would be able to show verifiable evidence of its existence but neither you or anyone else has ever been able to do so!

Unexplained spiritual actions do not nor cannot provide verifiable evidence,unless the individual themselves is touched.

You have either never experienced transformation or your critical mind denied the experience and sought alternate explanations. You seem to prefer further questions rather than any answers.
And THAT is reality!

Phat writes: Perhaps you can logically argue that we all have our own experience...which is true, but the fact that so many of our experiences are very similar in detail...down to the little things...is to me subjective evidence. We don't simply internalize and repeat each others stories...we have our own and they are external experience rather than internal imagination.

jar writes: As does every Hindu and Satanist and Muslim and Jew and ...

And what? What are you trying to prove? That truth is relative? That there is no right or final answer?

You seem to be unable to understand what evidence is.

You seem unwilling to commit to any belief which does not allow your brain and ego to veto so that you may be your own god and final arbiter.

Edited by Phat, : spelling

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Phat writes: This is true by and large, but I argue that some Christians become Christian Believers through being transformed in their minds rather than simply culturally indoctrinated.

Indoctrination IS the process that transforms a mind.

noun
noun: indoctrination
the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
"I would never subject children to religious indoctrination"
ARCHAIC
teaching; instruction.
"methods that were approved for indoctrination in divinity"

quote:

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If Jesus were simply human while on earth then there would be no transformation of any individual through encountering him while he was alive or encountering the mysterious Holy Spirit(Holy Ghost) after Jesus was raised.

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Don't be daft, people are 'transformed' by fraudsters, charismatic preachers and individuals for all sorts of bonkers belief systems. All just human.

If you want to see real, thoroughgoing transformation of people study the Muslim suicide bombers. Was David Koresh (Waco cult) also not 'simply human?'

... where did the miracles, healing and deliverance come from?

Just to what miracles, healing and deliverance do you refer?

And just how would we ever find objective evidence of a spiritual event?

My strongest spiritual event was when I was poopin’ ‘n ‘snoopin’ through the woods (technical military term) in the wee hours on a moonless cold winter field away from all light. Then the eyes settled into night mode. To the south was the milky way in all her glory spreading out across the skyline lit up like a billion sparklers set in unison. All over the sky in every direction blazed bright with stars to a depth I had never seen. All those photons. How old were they? How far had they come? I reached out my arm and cast a shadow in star light.

I had an epiphany of enlightenment that moment. How insignificant and yet how significant this little speck of life-covered rock really is. It struck deep and it struck hard. We are precious because, apparently, we are rare. Yet in this galaxy of extreme violence we are just a fragile speck of flotsam open to destruction at any moment from anywhere.

From there springs a philosophy of life.

That is how a realist, an atheist, has a spiritual event. Just as powerful, just as meaningful, as any other you may have had or heard … and just as subjective and just as meaningless to the universe as any of them.

It’s in your head, Phat.

Phat writes: Phat,addressing jar writes: You have no belief nor subjective evidence of the Holy Spirit. Yet the Holy Spirit *is* reality. Not that you will ever see it. jar writes: If that were true Phat you would be able to show verifiable evidence of its existence but neither you or anyone else has ever been able to do so! Unexplained spiritual actions do not nor cannot provide verifiable evidence,unless the individual themselves is touched. You have either never experienced transformation or your critical mind denied the experience and sought alternate explanations. You seem to prefer further questions rather than any answers. And THAT is reality!

That is just more nonsense Phat and an example of self fulling fantasy. When there are unexplained events it is only reasonable to acknowledge that they are unexplained and stop making up answers. And that is all you do Phat, make up answers.

Phat writes: Phat writes: Perhaps you can logically argue that we all have our own experience...which is true, but the fact that so many of our experiences are very similar in detail...down to the little things...is to me subjective evidence. We don't simply internalize and repeat each others stories...we have our own and they are external experience rather than internal imagination. jar writes: As does every Hindu and Satanist and Muslim and Jew and ... And what? What are you trying to prove? That truth is relative? That there is no right or final answer?

All of the evidence Phat shows that any God or god that humans can describe is simply the product of human imagination and exists only as long as humans believe in that God or god.

Phat writes: jar writes: You seem to be unable to understand what evidence is. You seem unwilling to commit to any belief which does not allow your brain and ego to veto so that you may be your own god and final arbiter.

Yet another silly assertion Phat. A really really really stupid one too.

I do not imagine I am some god or that I get to arbitrate anything.

Reality and evidence though do trump belief and fantasy.

AZPaul3 writes: My strongest spiritual event was when I was poopin’ ‘n ‘snoopin’ through the woods (technical military term) in the wee hours on a moonless cold winter field away from all light. Then the eyes settled into night mode. To the south was the milky way in all her glory spreading out across the skyline lit up like a billion sparklers set in unison. All over the sky in every direction blazed bright with stars to a depth I had never seen. All those photons. How old were they? How far had they come? I reached out my arm and cast a shadow in star light. I had an epiphany of enlightenment that moment. How insignificant and yet how significant this little speck of life-covered rock really is. It struck deep and it struck hard. We are precious because, apparently, we are rare. Yet in this galaxy of extreme violence we are just a fragile speck of flotsam open to destruction at any moment from anywhere.

Reminds me of a scripture...

Deut 4:15-20 writes: 15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

When my sister lived in Arizona she got sorta nutty like that. Something "spiritual" about those vortexes around the rocks in Sedona. She could have used a dose of Deuteronomy also. But to each his own.

And one more thing. Yes, we *are*rare. But I hate the term some use that we have "won a giant cosmic lottery". For this is no mere probability. It is infinite grace. God chose us. Not out of a trillion possibilities. But out of love.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Phat writes: ringo writes: I have as much "subjective experience" of the Holy Spirit as you do. Is so, why do you question it and go so far as to doubt it?

Because it's subjective.

Phat writes: Shelley teaches us what the book says....

I doubt that very much. Every flavor-of-the-month apologist that you've brought up has been a Bible-denier. If they were really "teaching" what the Bible says, you wouldn't be so terrified of discussing them honestly.

Phat writes: So what made you so willfully clueless in light of your subjective experience?

As i said, because it's subjective. It has no more relevance than my favorite movie or my favorite flavor of ice cream.

It's subjective. What part of that do you not understand?

Everybody has their own subjective experiences. They're all colored by the environment we grew up in. There is no universal truth to anybody's subjective experiences.

Phat writes: Indeed. Yet you *do* jump to the conclusion that God does not exist.

Liar. I have never reached that conclusion.

Phat writes: That Jesus was an amalgamation of several stories and myths.

That is not a jump. It's a logical progression which I have explained to you.

Phat writes: The story speaks for itself.

So does Treasure Island. But it is a story.

Phat writes: According to the Bible, the majority of humanity will deny that the Spirit is real. They prefer their own biological animal feelings over anything that may actually change and transform them for the better.

So, one more time: Why have YOU not been transformed?

jar writes: All of the evidence Phat shows that any God or god that humans can describe is simply the product of human imagination and exists only as long as humans believe in that God or god.

So that says it all. You are a believer in a product of human imagination. I daresay I am not, though there is no way to prove it to you. I will allow for your statement that GOD if GOD exists exists whether we all believed,none of us believed,or even if we did not exist....so I recall that you are on the same page as to GOD by7 definition and that you are simply describing God of human imagination. But you dance all around this issue. Jesus is Gods character. Jesus existed. Jesus taught humans. And this is where you stop. I go farther. I say Jesus is alive today and because of this, humans and God can be in communion.

When there are unexplained events it is only reasonable to acknowledge that they are unexplained and stop making up answers.

If so, why do you say you are a believer? My so called made-up answers validate my belief, though I still question it. You seem to think that you are a believer because the Episcopal Bishop with the funny hat and clothes gave you a certificate. How is that any less silly?

jar writes: And that is all you do Phat, make up answers.

Someone made up that guys wardrobe. Let me ask you this...it may clear up our argument.

Is Church a place to find solace in an answer or is church a place to ask questions? And if so, to whom do we address these questions? The GOD Who Is or the God of our individual and collective imaginations? I believe the former. You likely will believe the latter.

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"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
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“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

ringo writes: So, one more time: Why have YOU not been transformed?

I am being transformed. I have not yet arrived. Care to argue?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Phat, please learn to read. Stop posting answers to the questions YOU make up and pretending that you are addressing what others have posted. I really honestly believe that despite all the evidence that you are incapable of reading it might still be possible.

Phat writes: If so, why do you say you are a believer? My so called made-up answers validate my belief, though I still question it. You seem to think that you are a believer because the Episcopal Bishop with the funny hat and clothes gave you a certificate. How is that any less silly?

Please point out even one example from any of my posts over the last 16 years where I claimed I am a believer because of something done by any bishop or priest?

Really Phat, learn to read.

I am a Christian because I am a registered member of the Episcopal Church.

Read the sentence above.

Phat writes: jar writes: All of the evidence Phat shows that any God or god that humans can describe is simply the product of human imagination and exists only as long as humans believe in that God or god. So that says it all. You are a believer in a product of human imagination.

Phat, again, learn to read. I really think you can do it.

Have I described God or god?

Phat writes: Is Church a place to find solace in an answer or is church a place to ask questions? And if so, to whom do we address these questions? The GOD Who Is or the God of our individual and collective imaginations? I believe the former. You likely will believe the latter.

Basics of Christianity Phat, very basics.

Church is NOT a place Phat. Learn a few small parts of church history. That's not too much to ask. Learn what Christianity teaches about "church".

For this is no mere probability. It is infinite grace. God chose us.

Like I said in my last message, it's all in your head, Phat.

None of this is real

Something to consider.

As to this great cosmic lottery, keep in mind that our knowledge of physics is quite strong. We know in detail the operations of this universe and though we see what seems to be determinism we know that underneath there is the probabilistic nature of the universe.

We can see in the physics where, if we rewind the cosmic clock back 14 billions years ago what would result would not be the same as we see now. This sun and its planets most probably would not be formed all their materials having been randomly shuffled over cosmic time to other structures. No Earth, no humans. And with that, no talk of grace or gods.

The enormous complexity of the universe and the near infinite set of configurations available as probable outcomes for the matter/energy that is, preclude any repeat of the same exact outcome that we now see.

Run the project again and we would not be here. Run the project an million, a billion, a trillion times yet again and we would still not be here. But the one configuration that ultimately developed from all this jostling of matter/energy included a G-type main-sequence star and a small green-blue speck of dirt in orbit around it.

We get to live. We did win the Cosmic Lotto^SM.

There is nothing in quantum theory that builds any mathematical or philosophical cave in which to hide your god. There is nothing in quantum or classical theory that leaves any reason to propose the existence of some ultra-powerful physical-law-defying meddlesome entity loose to work its will on the universe.

No, Phat, your god had nothing to do with any of it. She was left out of this configuration.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

And just how would we ever find objective evidence of a spiritual event?

You make it up as you go along

Im thinking that if a guy had just studied church history and observed dishonest televangeliats thwy would conclude that apologetics is all about making it up. I honestly believe that some Christians become literally saved(born again) and /or transformed but a onetime epipany wears off unless the individual counts the coat and actually wants the transformation. As some of you have said before, the call of a Christian is hard work !!!!