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Author Topic:   Church History In Plain Language (4th edition)
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 7 of 51 (883389)
12-04-2020 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
12-04-2020 1:15 AM


Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
Phat writes:

Phat,addressing jar writes:

You have no belief nor subjective evidence of the Holy Spirit. Yet the Holy Spirit *is* reality. Not that you will ever see it.

jar writes:

If that were true Phat you would be able to show verifiable evidence of its existence but neither you or anyone else has ever been able to do so!

Unexplained spiritual actions do not nor cannot provide verifiable evidence,unless the individual themselves is touched.

You have either never experienced transformation or your critical mind denied the experience and sought alternate explanations. You seem to prefer further questions rather than any answers.
And THAT is reality!

That is just more nonsense Phat and an example of self fulling fantasy. When there are unexplained events it is only reasonable to acknowledge that they are unexplained and stop making up answers. And that is all you do Phat, make up answers.

Phat writes:

Phat writes:

Perhaps you can logically argue that we all have our own experience...which is true, but the fact that so many of our experiences are very similar in detail...down to the little things...is to me subjective evidence. We don't simply internalize and repeat each others stories...we have our own and they are external experience rather than internal imagination.

jar writes:

As does every Hindu and Satanist and Muslim and Jew and ...

And what? What are you trying to prove? That truth is relative? That there is no right or final answer?

All of the evidence Phat shows that any God or god that humans can describe is simply the product of human imagination and exists only as long as humans believe in that God or god.

Phat writes:

jar writes:

You seem to be unable to understand what evidence is.

You seem unwilling to commit to any belief which does not allow your brain and ego to veto so that you may be your own god and final arbiter.

Yet another silly assertion Phat. A really really really stupid one too.

I do not imagine I am some god or that I get to arbitrate anything.

Reality and evidence though do trump belief and fantasy.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 12-04-2020 1:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 12-04-2020 2:37 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 12 of 51 (883397)
12-04-2020 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
12-04-2020 2:37 PM


Learn to read Phat.
Phat, please learn to read. Stop posting answers to the questions YOU make up and pretending that you are addressing what others have posted. I really honestly believe that despite all the evidence that you are incapable of reading it might still be possible.

Phat writes:

If so, why do you say you are a believer? My so called made-up answers validate my belief, though I still question it. You seem to think that you are a believer because the Episcopal Bishop with the funny hat and clothes gave you a certificate. How is that any less silly?

Please point out even one example from any of my posts over the last 16 years where I claimed I am a believer because of something done by any bishop or priest?

Really Phat, learn to read.

I am a Christian because I am a registered member of the Episcopal Church.

Read the sentence above.

Phat writes:

jar writes:

All of the evidence Phat shows that any God or god that humans can describe is simply the product of human imagination and exists only as long as humans believe in that God or god.

So that says it all. You are a believer in a product of human imagination.

Phat, again, learn to read. I really think you can do it.

Have I described God or god?

Phat writes:

Is Church a place to find solace in an answer or is church a place to ask questions? And if so, to whom do we address these questions? The GOD Who Is or the God of our individual and collective imaginations? I believe the former. You likely will believe the latter.

Basics of Christianity Phat, very basics.

Church is NOT a place Phat. Learn a few small parts of church history. That's not too much to ask. Learn what Christianity teaches about "church".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 12-04-2020 2:37 PM Phat has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 17 of 51 (883409)
12-06-2020 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
12-05-2020 9:56 PM


Re: Evidence pertaining to unexplained miracles.
Phat writes:

Im thinking that if a guy had just studied church history and observed dishonest televangeliats thwy would conclude that apologetics is all about making it up.

If someone has actually studied church history and read the Bible how could they not conclude that apologetics is all about making it up? Are there any televangelists that are not dishonest?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 12-05-2020 9:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 11:36 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 20 of 51 (883413)
12-06-2020 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
12-06-2020 11:36 AM


Re: Registered Members & Believers
Phat, the believers in Acts are simply characters in a story.

Once again, instead of actually addressing the question you wander off into totally unrelated areas. The characters in the stories found in Acts have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Apologists today.

You ask once again how the Apologists could be tested and the answer is really, really, really, really, really simple; you compare what they say the Bible says to what is actually written in the Bible.

Phat writes:

I guess my question to you is this: Does a "registered member" equate to a "believer" or in some instances is the term merely a formality based upon a onetime public affirmation?

Once again, that has been answered again and again and again and again and again and again ...

A "registered member" means that you have been acknowledged as being a member of an organization.

Being a "believer" has NO uniform meaning whatsoever.

Again, basic Christian History is a perfect example. All of the people that make up the "Church Christian" (or Muslim or Hebrew or Buddhist or Satanist or Hindu or ...) are believers.

All are believers.

That is a fact.

But there is no universal or uniform or correct or TRUE belief.

The Aryan Christian Church was not Trinitarian.

The Roman Church was Trinitarian. Both were believers, believers in the same God and in Jesus but one group claimed that Jesus was God and not a separate individual while at the very same time claiming that Jesus sat at the Right Hand of God.

That mutually exclusive set of claims is simply crazy and an example of the long existing dishonest that is characteristic of the Romanized Church (almost all modern Evangelical and Fundamentalist cults are certainly and verifiably part of the Romanized Church).

Yes, since the Episcopal Church is a recognized chapter of Club Christian then if someone is a registered member of that Chapter that person is a Christian. It really is that simple. Yes, since the Episcopal Church through the Anglican Communion is part of the Romanized Christian Church and so yes even it exhibits the schizophrenia common to the Romanized Christian Church.

Now a member of some unrecognized club that claims to be a Chapter of Club Christian may or may not have a right to identify as being a Christian. Unless the "church" you claim to be a member of is among the recognized chapters of Club Christian your identification as a "Christian? certain can and should be questioned.

You might believe you are a Christian but I can provided testable and verifiable evidence of being a Christian. Evidence always trumps belief.

Beliefs are just beliefs. They have no meaning or value or rational or reality beyond being what you believe.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 11:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 2:55 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 22 of 51 (883415)
12-06-2020 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
12-06-2020 2:55 PM


Re: Orthodoxy vs jars Socratic Relativism
Think Phat, really try to think.

The uniformity is that they all believe and all believe that their beliefs are the right beliefs.

Phat writes:

And this, sir is where your train left the tracks. Episcopalians have at least some uniformity6 with any other recognized Christian Church. They have (or should have) NO uniformity with Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Mormonism or Atheism. And THAT is reality.

And yet, they do. Many support ecumenicalism and so acknowledge that other religions can be equally valid which is why Imams and Rabbis and Monks have led worship in the National Cathedral.

And Phat, when it came to the Aryan Christians and the Roman Christians BOTH groups were orthodox. What determined which dominated was might and power and economics and politics and not truth.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 2:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 3:29 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 24 of 51 (883418)
12-06-2020 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
12-06-2020 3:29 PM


Re: Orthodoxy vs jars Socratic Relativism
Sheeszh.

World Salad Phat. And no, you do not argue you simply assert.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 3:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 3:59 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 26 of 51 (883421)
12-06-2020 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
12-06-2020 3:59 PM


Re: Orthodoxy vs jars Socratic Relativism
There is no evidence that Absolute Truth exists and the evidence is what is written in the Bible stories. They are filled with relativistic truth.

Phat writes:

So can you argue that you and the registered members of your church could even hold a candle to the 120 believers in Acts?

The 120 believers in Acts are characters in a story.

Phat writes:

The modern day critical thinker is clueless towards absolute truth, likely believes that it(He) does not even exist, and if so that it is a product of their imagination and thus allowably relativistic.

Once again Phat this has been explained to you a brazillion times.

The evidence shows that there is no Absolute Truth. It is not a matter of belief, it is the conclusion based on and supported by the evidence.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-06-2020 3:59 PM Phat has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 41 of 51 (883482)
12-09-2020 5:39 PM


A truly great and significant book relating to both Christian Church history but more importantly to the Hebrew genesis of the stories that became the Old Testament under Christianity is Asimov's Guide o the Bible. Imminently readable it outlines the societal, political and economic forces that drove the creation of the Judaic faiths; Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 43 of 51 (883486)
12-10-2020 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
12-10-2020 8:08 AM


Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
You still seem to be unaware of the basics, of reality, of honesty, of evidence, of how to think.

The so called Bible is little different than any other piece of literature; it is the product of human imagination influenced by the culture of the author and reflecting the political, religious, social and mythos of the author's era and area.

Those factors, the political, religious, social and mythos of the author's era and area, are what can be studied but anyone and everyone regardless of the silly nonsense you post. There is no need for any "Holy Spirit" and in fact any such outside influence when examining evidence can only lead to a wrong conclusion.

And neither I or any other posters have suggested that Asimov's credentials might have any relevance. That is you continued error of thinking that SOURCE is of relevance over content. The content of Asimov's Guide to the Bible is what is significant and it is based on reality and evidence that can be independently verified regardless of the persons belief or some imaginary "Holy Spirit" (a trait that is singularly missing from ALL the apologists).


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 12-10-2020 8:08 AM Phat has seen this message

  
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